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Dindil

Incursion Leshak

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2 minutes ago, NilesGrey said:

 I think some of your reply got cut off.. either you are referring to base shield hp, or... it's missing a digit as the stats are 13,500 HP.  I don't want someone to skim the thread see your response and jump to a conclusion.

Nope. Nothing was cut off.

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@niki lasvegas is correct that the base shield of the Leshak is 3500 raw HP, however this fit has a base shield of 13,500 raw shield HP with the LSE and rigs, check my first post for the full fit, you can simulate it yourself or throw it into pyfa to see

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All battleships, other than the Vargur, are required to have a passive EM module or rig. Once you add that to your fit the shield HP goes down to 11.2k. It would also not be possible to tank the Leshak for influence.

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2 minutes ago, eFFektz G said:

All battleships, other than the Vargur, are required to have a passive EM module or rig. Once you add that to your fit the shield HP goes down to 11.2k. It would also not be possible to tank the Leshak for influence.

Not quite, all battleships are required to have all resists at 70% minimum which is usually done by fitting an EM module. This fit meets that requirement with the deadspace adaptive invulnerability fields. The fitting requirements are listed here https://wl.warptome.net/fits/

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1 minute ago, Dindil said:

Not quite, all battleships are required to have all resists at 70% minimum which is usually done by fitting an EM module. This fit meets that requirement with the deadspace adaptive invulnerability fields. The fitting requirements are listed here https://wl.warptome.net/fits/

 

  • Passive EM modules are required on all ships except Tech II Minmatar(Scimitar and Vargur).
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I missed that, thank you. That could pose a problem but the main purpose of that requirement is to ensure that all resists reach 70%. So ultimately something that leadership should take into consideration when looking at this fit.

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The purpose of that requirement is so that our ships retain a bit of their EM resist when neuted out by Outunis.

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4 minutes ago, eFFektz G said:

The purpose of that requirement is so that our ships retain a bit of their EM resist when neuted out by Outunis.

Ah, makes sense, my only counterpoint, and a potentially shaky one at that, would be it already would have a cap chain going with other snipers which would allow it to maintain the invuln fields, even with outuni neuts since they have relatively long neuting cycles at 24 seconds per cycle. The remote cap transfer units cycle every 5 seconds so assuming bad cycle times on the cap transfer, and the leshak was totally capped out with both invuln fields cycling down at the same time (absolute worst case scenario) there would be a total of 6 seconds where the invuln fields would be offline (the extra one second accounts for the server tick). I am not sure if this would be within acceptable tolerances and it could be spooky, hence why tests need to be done with it. But yes this is a weakness on this ship. Thank you for bringing this up!

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And this is a classic example of why we go through closed testing at first.  So far I have heard:

Ship needs to switch between tag orders to maintain spool up.

Ship needs to shoot dps or sniper tags depending for spool up.

Ship needs to cap chain to get around a standard requirement.

I am not opposed to the testing, but I have not seen anything to convince me of the viability of this ship. You cannot limit the number of them in a fleet like with Logi, its first come first serve. You cannot have more then 2 of them before you start shooting out of order, and you cannot keep them alive safely when they take TCRC aggro.

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12 hours ago, eFFektz G said:

All battleships, other than the Vargur, are required to have a passive EM module or rig. Once you add that to your fit the shield HP goes down to 11.2k. It would also not be possible to tank the Leshak for influence.

Look at the influence guide 2 invuls + LSE = tanked for influence. Just like starter ships, just like minimum fit marauders.

 

@Juan Carlos Minjita

No matter what to attempt to spool they shouldn't fire in order. Which i don't necessarily see as a terrible thing unless it become leshakathon 2019. Yes we shoot in order to DPS tank things, though that still ends up with weapons downtime between targets as all the f1 monkeys scramble to press f1 again, really good dps pilots know to switch targets just before it's dead to not waste time(like the ships somewhere below 30-40% hull you know it's about to pop. Just like staggering reps, staggering DPS works as well.

Sniper tags was just a thought I had monday after being unable to effectively pull aggro from vindis and crunching some numbers. It seems much more attainable to spool above sniper DPS then Vindi DPS, while still offering the benefit of super tower bashing power.

Cap stability isn't an issue unless it's running remote reps. 7 minutes cap life with a core x on 61% stable off. If it's viable as a sniper, could it be something to cap buddy with nightmare's sure. We all know nightmare's are always looking for cap buddies.

Their tank isn't in question. They survive just fine, the numbers don't lie there.
 

Optimal Vindi

10.9k shield HP

19.2k shield EHP invulns off

52.6k shield EHP invulns on

20.3k armor EHP

32.6k hull EHP

 

Leshak(dual b types t2 dcu, t2 EM rig, 2x t2 CDFE's) - you need t2 cdfe's to run dual b type fit

11.2k shield HP
20.2k shield EHP invulns off

54.6k shield EHP invulns on

22.9k armor EHP

24.9k hull EHP

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I can only go by Scruffy's B-type fit and that we were unable to keep him out of armor on swtiches between his two toons. 

He has been playing the game long enough to have very good skills. New players that are grabbing this ship may not. 

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40 minutes ago, Juan Carlos Minjita said:

I can only go by Scruffy's B-type fit and that we were unable to keep him out of armor on swtiches between his two toons. 

He has been playing the game long enough to have very good skills. New players that are grabbing this ship may not. 

Skills actually have very little to do with HP.

For shields it's legit 1 skill Shield management which if your training into a ship like the leshak for incursions one would hope you have it trained to V as it's only a 3x skill and you probably don't want it to blow up. Possibly EM shield comp if you are running a passive EM Mid but that's not fittable on the leshak. Hull upgrades for armor HP which for the most part should be trained to 4/5 as 4 is required for a DC2(technically you could bypass this with a storyline 'radical' or faction) and Mechanics for hull HP which require's level 4 for nanite operation. Though being a shield community I really think the different in armor/hull hp is somewhat negligible as we should be trying to keep people in their primary tank not below it.

When I first flew my leshak(fun fleet) at times it felt slightly squishy but monday it didn't feel squishy at all. Admittedly I have the absolute max possible tank on it without going purple(dual a types, faction dcu, t2 rigs and genos). I really think the determining factor for how squishy something feels is how on point logi are that day.

I don't know scruffy's fit off hand, but the only variance would be if he was running t1 rigs, or was running weird rigs(does he fly with TDF could he be armor rigged?)

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28 minutes ago, niki lasvegas said:

This is simply not true.

Ok Niki next time I manage to fly with you as FC i'll bring the leshak and prove you wrong. For tank the numbers don't lie, for damage the numbers can be skewed due to application.

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9 hours ago, Maximus Atreide said:

Look at the influence guide 2 invuls + LSE = tanked for influence. Just like starter ships, just like minimum fit marauders.

This fit can barely survive without influence. Do you really think it would be fine as is under influence?

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3 hours ago, Juan Carlos Minjita said:

Scruffy had a gist a and a pith c plus Republic fleet LSE. Hit low armour in tcrc. Hit armour every tcrc. 

Doesn't answer the question of rigs. If he is running those invulns and lse a dc2 and t2 rigs 1xEM 2x CDFE he just hits 100k EHP. He still shouldn't be hitting armor unless he doesn't have shield rigs.

1 hour ago, eFFektz G said:

This fit can barely survive without influence. Do you really think it would be fine as is under influence?

The only time a leshak is really going to pull aggro is a TCRC tower bash and we don't do those under high influence anyway and it still has more tank that starter ships that require a LSE at all times and dont change for influence.

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Scruffy's fit doesn't actually meet requirements, it's only at ~9k Shields and only at ~95k ehp iirc.  I realize that 5k who doesn't matter that much, however I don't think it's reasonable to use one of the only people allow fly under requirements as a judge of ship survivability.  That seems to be like comparing the viability of a basilisk based on a pilot with Logistics level 2.

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1 hour ago, NilesGrey said:

Scruffy's fit doesn't actually meet requirements, it's only at ~9k Shields and only at ~95k ehp iirc.  I realize that 5k who doesn't matter that much, however I don't think it's reasonable to use one of the only people allow fly under requirements as a judge of ship survivability.  That seems to be like comparing the viability of a basilisk based on a pilot with Logistics level 2.

can confim scruffy is  not using a  fit that meets our tank requirements, i think its because its fun for him to arop into his giant armor pool ;D its not like the leshak has no armor tank xD so dropping into armor with it is not actually bad xD

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@Dindil

I'm gonna be real with you. WTM is new player friendly, meaning that it is extremely important that folks stick with anchors as both DPS and Logi might be new/inexperienced. Lets say this ship is amazing...then the floodgates open for less smart people to fit the ship and then leadership has to redo work and this puts more pressure on FCs to check ships. 

The best process is to keep things as simple as possible for Logi/DPS/FCs. Making it harder will only grow losses in the fleet and WTM's goal is to teach new folks how to get better.

Overall I enjoy your thinking and commend the research you have done. :) 

Just go officer shield tanked Rokh. Best ship to stay safe and it still puts out more damage than new bros in the fleet.

 

DISCLAIMER: I don't know much about incursions but maybe a thing or two. Follow the KISS method. (Keep It Simple Stupid).

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On 06/12/2018 at 11:46 AM, NilesGrey said:

Scruffy's fit doesn't actually meet requirements, it's only at ~9k Shields and only at ~95k ehp iirc.  I realize that 5k who doesn't matter that much, however I don't think it's reasonable to use one of the only people allow fly under requirements as a judge of ship survivability.  That seems to be like comparing the viability of a basilisk based on a pilot with Logistics level 2.

Your analogy is flawed, but your point is valid.  I have repeatedly asked to be presented with logs and statistics in order to help make the decision.

This has never been forthcoming from anyone that has tested it in our fleets. 

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I think we total could limit the number in fleet we only used to let one ddd loki in fleet we could limit it to like 2-3 leshaks. do to the way there they work i see no real issue with that weird ship weird rule. Now i have finished the skills I will try one this weekend.

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