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Dindil

Incursion Leshak

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So I asked today in a fleet if a Leshak would work for incursions and I was immediately told don't talk about it here post on the forums so that's what I'm doing now.
I designed a fit using the warptome battleship fleet guide and found it has a comparable tank to the Vindicator Standard fit.

The Vindicator Standard fit gets 108,157ehp with shield resists being 73% EM, 73% thermal, 73% kinetic, and 78% explosive and 14,464 raw shield hitpoints.


This Leshak gets 108,795 total ehp with shield resists being 70% EM, 76% thermal, 82% kinetic, and 85% explosive and 13,500 raw shield hitpoints.

My question is whether I would be allowed to bring this fit on a fleet. The dps ramp up to roughly 3000dps (I have heard that similar fits can get upwards of 9000dps when fully spooled up) would make it incredibly useful during tower bashes, and with a base dps of 737 (with precursor battleship at level 3) it still can compete with other dps platforms even with rapid target switching. I estimated on average primaried battleship rats will survive about 10-15 seconds which means the turret dps will ramp up to about 900. This is comparable to vindicator dps with null which sits at 980. If however the Leshak focused on dps target 2 or 3, its dps would ramp up much higher (I do not have hard numbers on this I would have to test it). Now a problem that was presented to me was "what if you had 10 people in these" and yes that would be an issue as having that many ships with spooling dps would hinder the fleet, and at that point it would be up to FC discretion to limit the total number of leshaks in the fleet to no more than 3 or 4.

In short my main question is would this be allowed on fleets in small numbers given its stats are comparable to other dps platforms.

Here is the Leshak fit

[Leshak, *Incursion Leshak]
Damage Control II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
500MN Microwarpdrive II

Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II

Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II

 

Hammerhead II x5

Occult L x1000



For reference here is the Vindicator Standard fit I pulled from https://wl.warptome.net/fits/
 

Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II
 
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier
 
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
 
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
 
 
Ogre II x5
Null L x1
Void L x1
Nanite Repair Paste x50

 

 

*edited Leshak dps to turret dps from total dps

Edited by Dindil

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The Leshak has three big issues.

First: Paper DPS =/= applied DPS. Yes, you can hit 3k with full spin up. Will you hit that during any site that doesn't have a tower bash? Not likely. Get jammed, your DPS is reset. Target dies, your DPS is reset. It takes more than a minute to hit that top point, most things don't last that long.

Second: Cost and utility. To reach our fitting requirements demands a fit that costs 3-5 times a starting vindi and requires such concessions that you can't do anything with it. No webs, no paints, no fleet support of any kind whatsoever.

Third: Speed. Leshaks are extremely slow. That makes keeping up with the DPS blob harder and getting into optimal range for damage less likely.

 

We've done testing of the hull and it just isn't worth it. It doesn't do anything that even a beginner fit vindi can't do better in just about every way.

Edited by Miranda Barstow

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what he said and my 2c worth the ship is armmor and the hull resistsare set that way as we are a shield group with the logi traing to that way of logiing and not armmor the ship is harder to keep up that the standerd vin or NAPoc for that matter and both of the ship named are a pain for logi to keep up 

skills/ cost  traning the ship/wepone for the Leshak is at this time 250% higher than the vinda so not for New playrers and we are a NEW  Bro frendly group 

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@Miranda Barstow

Yes the leshak has high paper dps, it's applied dps isn't terrible it's not a max skilled void vindi right out of the gate, but it does have better range, 27k with tracking enhancers and occult, 67k with mystic.

It has high slot utility like a marauder.

It isn't slow with a core-x it goes 1360 a core-x vindi goes 1202.

@Charlemagne III

While it's slot lay out is set up for armor tank, It's not really any less tanky then a Vindi or Marauder with bling fits. I mean hell technically Gallente ships are Armor tank not shield. The only variance is the Leshak does require a LSE and 2 Core Defense Field extenders to get that shield buffer the Vindi does not. Otherwise the resist profile's are identical and the Leshak can have better EM resists due to having the calibration to run a T2 EM Rig. Because there are not any leshak damage rigs, there isn't really any other great option for rigs aside from tank rigs.

Vindi(Bling Fit)

HP 10.9k shield

EHP 59.2k shield

 

Leshak(t1 CDFE)

HP 10.3k shield

EHP 56.5k shield

 

Leshak (t2 CDFE)

HP 11.2k shield

EHP 61.6k shield

 

It falls short because you basically need precursor battleship to V and a RF-906 implant to maximize it's spool time to apply damage. Switching targets sucks, getting jammed sucks. If they were an allowed ship do I think we would see a ton of them, maybe maybe not, when they realize their not pulling aggro from vindi's like they thought they would pilots may tire of them. Can it be an issue having to many of them in fleet yes, do I think that will really be an issue, no, it's like how many golems are showing up? 1-2 golems cool for super paints more then that useless.

 

Juan has given me the ability to test mine that I built for Imelda's fun fleet just to see if it's viable, will only fly it if I'm around amarr as I leave it there. I flew it for a couple sites yesterday and I was sad that I didn't love it as much as I thought I would. I would only pull aggro at the end of TCRC tower bashes, it was essentially useless in a nrf aside from switching to mystic and hitting sniper targets. I don't think it will ever really be viable if it followed DPS tags in order.

 

I was actually thinking it might be viable as a sniper that switches to occult for tower bashes. Mystic starts at like 740 and ramps up to like 1800. base range is 67k with 3 faction tracking enhancers. Not sure why as I was not getting a link but in fleet yesterday boosts somehow increased my range to 79k though we had a snowflake scout in a claymore giving us other boosts before going in sites, not sure if somehow that was causing it.

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I guess its time to drop the bomb than xD the leshak actually performes only slightly worse than a bling vindi in a nrf and outperformes it in Tpph& Tcrc (total damage dealt during site) tank whise as maximus pointed out it as tanky as a vindi & speed is a non issue since you have a 21km range + you actually are not slower than a vindi ;D just the inertia is big but once it gets going its like a rock rolling down a hill ;P  I jusct couldnt be botherd to actually present the numbers in a nice fasion since 90% of the command core is already against allowing it/ even accepting its small drawback ( has to shoot tags out of order) , so putting the 4h in to compile my numbers didnt seem to be worth it for me ;D if anyone wants to do it pm me, i got logs & stats comparing it to niki & Jdread in a vindi both shooting tags in order & shooting tags optimised ;D

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@Charlemagne IIIThis fit absolutely would not be friendly for newer players and I am not saying it should be a standard WTM fit. I am simply asking if this would be allowed at all since the numbers show it can perform equally to a vindicator in terms of tank, its faster in terms of speed (thanks for getting those numbers @Maximus Atreide), and can hit to much farther ranges. I like the idea that it should be a sniper platform with mystic for the main sites that switches to occult for the tower bashes. I talked with scruffy who is allowed to bring leshaks on fleets and he was telling me about 30k damage ticks on towers which seems incredibly useful for TCRCs. Because of the numerous utility highslots it could also fit a tractor for MTAC runs if no machariels or marauders are in a particular fleet. If not running MTAC then it should stay with the snipers for capchaining, again making use of its numerous utility highslots.

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51 minutes ago, Celina Knop said:

I guess its time to drop the bomb than xD the leshak actually performes only slightly worse than a bling vindi in a nrf and outperformes it in Tpph& Tcrc (total damage dealt during site) tank whise as maximus pointed out it as tanky as a vindi & speed is a non issue since you have a 21km range + you actually are not slower than a vindi ;D just the inertia is big but once it gets going its like a rock rolling down a hill ;P  I jusct couldnt be botherd to actually present the numbers in a nice fasion since 90% of the command core is already against allowing it/ even accepting its small drawback ( has to shoot tags out of order) , so putting the 4h in to compile my numbers didnt seem to be worth it for me ;D if anyone wants to do it pm me, i got logs & stats comparing it to niki & Jdread in a vindi both shooting tags in order & shooting tags optimised ;D

Heh i can remember my logs compared to you, which you never posted. And i can remember smashing your performance :P

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2 hours ago, Maximus Atreide said:

Not sure why as I was not getting a link but in fleet yesterday boosts somehow increased my range to 79k though we had a snowflake scout in a claymore giving us other boosts before going in sites, not sure if somehow that was causing it.

Several people noticed a strange glitch recently where you get more range and tracking without a reason (probably just a display bug). Its a CCPLZ thing.

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12 minutes ago, niki lasvegas said:

Several people noticed a strange glitch recently where you get more range and tracking without a reason (probably just a display bug). Its a CCPLZ thing.

Weird yea tracking was up too, pyfa shows it at like 6.82 ingame i was a little over 11. Though i feel like when i was in station and checking again it was back to normal.

I don't feel like it was a display glitch cause I started firing at 31k vs 27k and pretty sure I was hitting.

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So going along with the sniper thing, I will now compare the Leshak to the WTM Intermediate Nightmare

Nightmare tank: 100,052 EHP, 15,165 raw shield hp, resists: 73%EM, 73% Thermal, 71% Kinetic, 76% Explosive
Leshak tank:      108,795 EHP, 13,500 raw shield hp, resists: 70% EM, 76% Thermal, 82% Kinetic, and 85% Explosive

Leshak has lower raw hp, but higher EHP and better resists which make incoming logi reps more effective.



Nightmare speed: 1058.8 m/s
Leshak speed: 1336.6 m/s

The leshak would have no problems keeping up with the fleet.

 

Now for dps I will compare the two assuming the nightmare has 2 optimal range scripts and 1 tracking speed script

Nightmare Gleam turret DPS (highest damaging ammo):  812,        21km - 62km, tracking score 3.68
Nightmare XRay turret DPS: 667                      64km - 105km, tracking score 2.94
Nightmare Ultraviolat turret DPS: 600               75km - 116km, tracking score 2.94

(Assuming Precursor Battleship V and weapon spec III, in my OP I assumed Precursor battleship III hence the difference in dps here)
Leshak Mystic turret DPS: starts at 680, ramps to 1700, 66km, tracking score 6.39
Leshak Occult turrent DPS: starts at 944, ramps to 2360, 26km, tracking score 6.39

So while the Leshak would not have the total range of a nightmare, it will do more dps than a Nightmare loaded with X-Ray when firing on targets at a similar range, especially considering said spoolup. If all sniper targets are over 66km away, the Leshak would simply switch to in range dps targets until sniper targets are within said 66km.

So comparing a Leshak to a sniping platform, it seems like it would do well if not better, especially taking into consideration the lack of webs as stated by @Miranda Barstow that would push it more into a sniping role.
However it is not without fleet support as it has the cap transfer units which would synergize perfectly with the nightmares it would most likely be flying with.

*edit added in the WTM Nightmare incursion fit

Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Tachyon Beam Laser II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II
 
Sensor Booster II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier
 
Capacitor Power Relay II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
 
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
 
 
Hammerhead II x5
Acolyte II x5
Gleam L x1
Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x1
Imperial Navy Gamma L x1
Imperial Navy Xray L x1
Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L x1
Nanite Repair Paste x50
Optimal Range Script x3
Tracking Speed Script x3
Scan Resolution Script x1
ECCM Script x1
Edited by Dindil
Added in the WTM incursion nightmare fit

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53 minutes ago, Dindil said:

@Charlemagne IIIThis fit absolutely would not be friendly for newer players and I am not saying it should be a standard WTM fit. I am simply asking if this would be allowed at all since the numbers show it can perform equally to a vindicator in terms of tank, its faster in terms of speed (thanks for getting those numbers @Maximus Atreide), and can hit to much farther ranges. I like the idea that it should be a sniper platform with mystic for the main sites that switches to occult for the tower bashes. I talked with scruffy who is allowed to bring leshaks on fleets and he was telling me about 30k damage ticks on towers which seems incredibly useful for TCRCs. Because of the numerous utility highslots it could also fit a tractor for MTAC runs if no machariels or marauders are in a particular fleet. If not running MTAC then it should stay with the snipers for capchaining, again making use of its numerous utility highslots.

Wrecking shots on towers for those 27-30k hits are very rare. On average hits were 8-13k only once spooled up which is on par with a Vindicator.

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So given these stats would this fit be allowed to fly in WTM fleets similarly to how marauders are allowed?

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@Dindil first off this ship would be allowed in a fun fleet.  These are special events that WTM runs that allow any DPS/Sniper ship that meets the tanking requirements.  Secondly, if you're going to compare the Nightmare, I'd recommend you use the right crystals for the job.  Most nightmare pilots use Imperial Navy Multifrequency or Imp Navy Gamma for hitting their targets due to the increased range they get with multi that is usually sufficient to reach most targets after anchoring. Prior to anchoring, we'll use Gamma for picking off the Mara's and those pesky long range vylades. :D  Compare those stats and let me know what you get.

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17 minutes ago, NilesGrey said:

@Dindil first off this ship would be allowed in a fun fleet.  These are special events that WTM runs that allow any DPS/Sniper ship that meets the tanking requirements.  Secondly, if you're going to compare the Nightmare, I'd recommend you use the right crystals for the job.  Most nightmare pilots use Imperial Navy Multifrequency or Imp Navy Gamma for hitting their targets due to the increased range they get with multi that is usually sufficient to reach most targets after anchoring. Prior to anchoring, we'll use Gamma for picking off the Mara's and those pesky long range vylades. :D  Compare those stats and let me know what you get.

Sure thing, here are the comparisons with Imp Navy Multifreq, and Imp Navy Gamma. I picked those crystals as they were what was on the fit and I assumed they were used frequently, I have not flown a Nightmare before in an incursion fleet.

Again assuming 2 optimal and 1 tracking script

Nightmare Imp Navy Gamma turret DPS: 733                      53km - 94km, tracking score 2.94
Nightmare Imp Navy Multifrequency turret DPS: 800               42km - 83km, tracking score 2.94

And for direct comparison
Leshak Mystic turret DPS: starts at 680, ramps to 1700, 66km, tracking score 6.39
Leshak Occult turrent DPS: starts at 944, ramps to 2360, 26km, tracking score 6.39

The Leshak still has better tracking at similar ranges, and with ramping dps, will catch up to Nightmare gamma DPS in 2 cycles, (7.3 seconds) and will catch up to Multifrequency DPS in 4 cycles (14.6 seconds).

Edited by Dindil
Has wrong scripts loaded

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24 minutes ago, NilesGrey said:

@Dindil first off this ship would be allowed in a fun fleet.  These are special events that WTM runs that allow any DPS/Sniper ship that meets the tanking requirements.

So sure it would be allowed on fun fleets what about normal fleets? The stats show it can keep up with the rest of the fleet in terms of tank, speed, dps, and tracking, for range it would simply switch between dps and sniper targets depending on range.

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That much is for leadership to ultimately decide, I believe it will face the same struggle as the Marshall.  Currently, it's not a cost-effective alternative for a new capsuleer as an alternative entry option to incursions compared to the Optimal Fits.  There are many many options that meet the reqs and perform well but WTM builds its doctrine on a large number of factors that include price, effectiveness, fleet support options, entry barriers (skill reqs, requires implants to use?), just to name a few.  I am not opposed to the idea. In fact, I too love to challenge current doctrine to consider different options.  Please remember that ultimately it is here on the forums that the decisions for adding a ship to doctrine will be discussed and the FC's you see in-game are often not the people that will make the final decision but are expected to follow the rules established by the leadership elected to guide and safeguard the community.  Furthermore, it's important that we consider how difficult it would be for a day one player to get into this fit and be as effective as a bare minimum skilled dps/sniper pilot.  You have the skills to make it work, I'm sure I do as well, but does Jim who joined Eve 3 weeks ago?  Our best option is to provide the information in an effective breakdown of statistics (which is why I asked for the data I did) and then give leadership time to debate and discuss.

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@NilesGrey Thanks for the reply, sure this fit is not for new players, and I dont expect it to become a main WTM doctrine ship. If it simply comes down to supplying WTM leadership with skills and implants that would be used with the fit to be put on a "greenlist" of sorts that would be fine by me too. This is just the case I have presented for having it allowed in small numbers, possibly by pilots that would need to get permission first as opposed to outright not allowed on fleets as it is now. I hope leadership sees this and gets back to me, and I would love to discuss it with them as well.

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@Dindil

As of currently no Leshaks are not allowed by anyone aside from 3 people who have the ability to fly whatever they want because they founded the community, that would be Sparta, Canyon and Scruffy. The only one of those three you will ever see in a Leshak is Scruffy or one of his alts.

 

If there is another pilot in a Leshak it would be a full badge commander who has made a case for their potential viability to our FC Department branch head and they are flying the ship to collect data for hard proof that it's viable. As of right now the only person who falls under that category is me. In the past when Leshaks were first released Celina Knop was also doing some testing, but there were some concerns as to how it would be piloted and the testing was halted.

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14 minutes ago, Maximus Atreide said:

@Dindil

 In the past when Leshaks were first released Celina Knop was also doing some testing, but there were some concerns as to how it would be piloted and the testing was halted.

 

@Maximus Atreide

So those concerns are mostly what I am going after. What specifically is causing the Leshak to not be allowed on fleet if on paper it looks fine. All I've heard so far is "you're not allowed to fly it cause leadership says so" and that's not a convincing argument to me. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I am just genuinely curious as to why this is not allowed to fly.

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4 minutes ago, Dindil said:

 

@Maximus Atreide

So those concerns are mostly what I am going after. What specifically is causing the Leshak to not be allowed on fleet if on paper it looks fine. All I've heard so far is "you're not allowed to fly it cause leadership says so" and that's not a convincing argument to me. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I am just genuinely curious as to why this is not allowed to fly.

Think of it this way. Just like any product rollout there is alpha testing, there is beta testing and there is the release.

 

In this situation we are essentially in Alpha testing, a select few will run the ship explore it's viability, the data will be reviewed by the rest of the commander community if it looks viable, perhaps then it will move to closed or open beta testing.

 

Alpha testing is usually done under strict control and always done in house. In this instance in house means part of the WTM command core, the strict control narrows it down to vetted full badge commanders who will explore compile an assess data.

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1 minute ago, Maximus Atreide said:

Think of it this way. Just like any product rollout there is alpha testing, there is beta testing and there is the release.

 

In this situation we are essentially in Alpha testing, a select few will run the ship explore it's viability, the data will be reviewed by the rest of the commander community if it looks viable, perhaps then it will move to closed or open beta testing.

 

Alpha testing is usually done under strict control and always done in house. In this instance in house means part of the WTM command core, the strict control narrows it down to vetted full badge commanders who will explore compile an assess data.

That makes sense to me, I just hope that this ship and fit will be given a thorough look at then and be allowed on fleets in the near future.

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2 minutes ago, Dindil said:

That makes sense to me, I just hope that this ship and fit will be given a thorough look at then and be allowed on fleets in the near future.

While that's still to be determined the main problem I see is if the ship gets treated like a marauder by most people and ends up that someone brings one here or there it wouldn't be an issue, and they can do their snowflake things with it to try and maximize it's effectiveness. But it's CCP's latest and greatest shiny new toy with unheard of potential DPS and everyone will want in on the action at which point spooling will most likely not happen in any reasonable amount and you essentially end up with a bunch of leshaks doing no more damage then Hyperions unless it's a towerbash. Also not to mention the Ammo is expensive 1-2x(depend on ship/ gun count) more expensive then faction hybrid ammo, 7-8x more expensive then T2 hybrid ammo and from all 5 skills it looks like it's going to burn ammo faster as well.

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Shield Capacity    3 500 HP.
Medium Power Slots    4

Yes. Please. Bring this ship to a newbrofriendly shield incursion community where not even the linepilots, but the logies and sometimes the FCs are newbros too. Best idea of this year.

Edited by niki lasvegas

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8 minutes ago, Maximus Atreide said:

But it's CCP's latest and greatest shiny new toy with unheard of potential DPS and everyone will want in on the action at which point spooling will most likely not happen in any reasonable amount and you essentially end up with a bunch of leshaks doing no more damage then Hyperions unless it's a towerbash.

Thats why I think it would be up to the FC to limit the total number of Leshaks in any one fleet to at most 3 or 4, there definitely should not be a lot of leshaks in the fleet because of spoolup. Similar to how they balance the amount of logi/snipers/dps or allowing too many marauders in at the same time.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Maximus Atreide said:

Also not to mention the Ammo is expensive 1-2x(depend on ship/ gun count) more expensive then faction hybrid ammo, 7-8x more expensive then T2 hybrid ammo and from all 5 skills it looks like it's going to burn ammo faster as well.

While yes it would be more expensive, its not as bad as it seems. In Jita, Large Occult is 9,899 ISK per unit as of the time of this post, and Large Mystic is 10,990ISK. The disintegrator on the Leshak fires once every 3.5 seconds with precursor battleship V, meaning it chews through ammo at a rate of 17.1 per minute or 170,000 ISK per minute.
Caldari navy antimatter large is currently 1140 ISK in Jita, on a vindicator it would be firing 8 per cycle at a rate of 1 volley every 3.95 seconds, it will go through ammo at a rate of 15.1 cycles per minute or 140,000 ISK per minute which is similar.
However like you said it is much more expensive than T2 ammo, Void L  and Null L being 200ISK per unit which totals 24,000 ISK per minute which is far more cost effective.

So I do agree with you it is more expensive to operate, it is not prohibitively so.

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1 minute ago, niki lasvegas said:

Shield Capacity    3 500 HP.

 I think some of your reply got cut off.. either you are referring to base shield hp, or... it's missing a digit as the stats are 13,500 HP.  I don't want someone to skim the thread see your response and jump to a conclusion.

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