Brok Haslack 2 Posted June 9, 2018 NO DOCTRINE HAS BEEN CHANGED YET> THIS IS JUST THEORY-CRAFTING. I've just done this presentation here showing how a bit less Alpha & a bit more tracking can help our Machs: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1QRIb08YwhZsCrAMc53DqnSxNMDaZGQb3Gi4eti6oIbo/edit?usp=sharing As we are a non-contest fleet for us it's more about killing rats quickly, instead of killing towers quickly. We make our ISK by dodging & occasionally losing contests. So if we clear our other sites quickly the lost contest is not a problem. Machs with 1400's start to miss as soon as you start to move, & we move a lot. I personally thing a 1200 Mach that closes on it's target could really help us out. 1400's only shine when teh target is near-stationary. As soon as the target ( or you ) start to move it starts to go wrong.. If a certain rival Fleet drive us into teh TPPH's then us clearing that TPPH quickly will help us make up for lost time/ISK elsewhere. In TPPH's we move a lot more than in a TCRC. The Skirmish Mach will move a bit closer to it's target, & uses 1200's. The current snipey uses 1400's & keeps movement to a minimum. No power rig or mod means more slots for tracking & damage. This graph alone will show you how closing in and having better tracking will help you apply your damage as a Mach Pilot. Blue is the 1400, & yellow is the 1200. On a cruiser shot like an Auga. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brok Haslack 2 Posted June 9, 2018 This is a skirmish Mach fit. 5 damage 4 tracking. [Machariel, WTM Mach? - Tracker :)] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Small Tractor Beam II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Caldari Navy Wasp x5 Quake L x6557 Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L x3000 Republic Fleet EMP L x5916 Tracking Speed Script x2 Or... 4 damage 5 tracking. [Machariel, WTM Mach? - Tracker+ :)] Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Small Tractor Beam II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Caldari Navy Wasp x5 Quake L x6557 Republic Fleet Depleted Uranium L x3000 Republic Fleet EMP L x5916 Tracking Speed Script x2 . It would close in on it's target a bit ( say 15km, using 1 MWD pulse ) & then open fire. It can then hold that fire until teh target goes down. It makes up for paper dps loss by having better tracking & more mods/rigs. 1200's use less power. You won't win in a TCRC, but we are losing in TCRC's anyway. We don't do Opti as heavily as our rivals. So... If you are closer to your target & have better tracking you apply more compared to a static sniper. So we become bosses at popping rats instead. That way we are stronger in TPPH's & NRF's. Well, that's teh idea anyway. Our Machs move a little bit, just to get a better shot in. And discuss Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brok Haslack 2 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) This is a VG strategy that actually worked against TVP. With TVP you either engage or you dodge. We used 800mm machs in a 4 damage 5 tracking set-up, & then dodged sideways into the NCO's. TVP could not follow, & we made some good iskies in peace. I think we need to think this way at HQ level. We know that the Nightmares & Vindis work, but our Machs are... a little weak. Now factor in our Newbros & sub-opti Hulls, & I think dodging will be a winner for us. So we boss the rat-popping stuff; the NRF's & TPPH's. PvP-like application, instead of Paper DPS. That's my suggestion Edited June 9, 2018 by Brok Haslack Brok has a dumb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brok Haslack 2 Posted June 10, 2018 Subnote: Actual Flight Test. In the trashcan fleet yesterday my trashcan ( Typhoon Fleet Issue ) had some 1200's. & I flew in DPS, so was moving at 1400m/s A LOT. The 1200's simply did not miss. Lots of reliable hits & smashes. The damage boost is getting into Quake range sooner compared to your rival. Skirmishing, instead of Static Sniper. That's all the data I have. I would like to see more Flight Tests I have to say Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Izumi Uchiya MD 214 Posted June 10, 2018 "a lot missed and a lot didn't" is a subjective assessment, not data. It you want to analyze your combat logs, that could be more useable data but it takes work and time. Even then, a sniper following the VVV and shooting dps targets with 1400s is basically going to be garbage for data. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Toh Kay Manifess 68 Posted June 11, 2018 On 6/9/2018 at 3:11 PM, Brok Haslack said: As we are a non-contest fleet for us it's more about killing rats quickly, instead of killing towers quickly. We make our ISK by dodging & occasionally losing contests. So if we clear our other sites quickly the lost contest is not a problem. Strongly disagree. First of all saying "we make our ISK by dodging & occasionally losing contests" is extremely misleading. Our rule is we do not actively contest. This does not mean we are always dodging and losing contests. Main of our commanders will "aggressively take gates" which means taking the gate before the other fleet at the same gate does. We often win these contests as well. Just because you don't fly in these fleets does not mean it doesn't happen. Some FCs choose to avoid contests which is understandable but others enjoy them and are very good at them. This is our official stance, it always has been and will be for the foreseable future so please stop saying we only avoid or lose contests in future posts because it's just not true. We don't base our tactics on losing contests. Second, any commander will tell you that the majority of the time in sites is bashing towers, that's why everybody runs so vindi heavy. A fifth damage mod gets severe stacking penalties and is basically pointless.the 1400 is just the better option for HQs at least. Snipers are almost always sitting still and if people are missing targets sitting still then frankly just train tracking skills or a nightmare. Alpha is where the machs shine so the 1400s are of course the best option for high alpha. This is what we want for the machs. High alpha on targets for things like contest situations and reps like maras. The nightmares should be the ones with good tracking. mach and nms have two different roles in fleet and I think that would be a mistake to remove one of those roles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brok Haslack 2 Posted June 11, 2018 This is where it gets interesting: I'm not an FC, I'm a Pilot & Regular Flyer. I also take a heavy focus on boat-building, eye-balling application ( a PvP thing ) a lot. I hate missing the target. I usually see a fleet with a lot of Hyperions etc in it, as we train up Newbies. Plus a few Rokhs, & the odd potato. A certain rival fleet ( whose name shall not be named, for they are smelly ) will just shove you into an expensive hull instead, whilst only letting the best pilots on grid due to 'heavy contesting' apparently being an issue ( they could just stay away, but they never seem to... ). So when you compare Fleet Comps... We are less Opti. A lot. And we do have to move focus to get away from this rival slightly-whiffy fleet. Dodging. We did so over the weekend for example. It was Einstein who pointed out how repetition doesn't solve problems. So my view is that we either stamp on the newbs or change our strategies to more of a 'hit & run' thing. I would rather we change our strategies. I like newbs. And yes, you are right, I never seem to end up in the contest-winning Fleets. C'est la vie. . As for Combat Logs this is where 2 tools come into play: Pyfa: https://github.com/pyfa-org/Pyfa/releases ( where I got the graphs from ) Combat Log analyser: http://evelog.mikk36.eu ( You upload the big files in game logs folder ) Manually counting the number of 'glances off' & 'grazes', compared to 'smashes' & 'penetrates', can also work ok. A test flight would see a bunch of Machs do 12 hrs of 1400 action, and then do 12 hrs of 1200 skirmish 'closing in on the target' action. Then you can check it over. . I also noted yesterday our FC's were checking the Machs over to see what the Pilots were doing. A good idea. . I'm sure we'll get it fixed in the end. Machs have their uses; but too many people just do 'big gun' stuff, instead of heading into the finer detail. That's my view anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Izumi Uchiya MD 214 Posted June 12, 2018 Better than running a few hours of 1400s then a few hours with 1200s, fit a mix of both and shoot them at the same time. Then you are comparing them head-to-head in real time against the same targets. With multiple tracking midslots on the Mach, paper dps advantage of 1400s, and many times snipers are sitting still or shooting towers, I am not very confident that 1200s would be more effective. But I guess it is possible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
