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Knightandday558

Scimi V Advanced with 4 Links

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Hey there! I was just wondering if scimis could use this fit as the new most advanced Scimi V logi fit with implants:

[Scimitar, Buzz Buzz]
Syndicate Damage Control
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Corelum B-Type 10MN Afterburner
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer

Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

 

Warrior II x5
Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x2

Tracking Speed Script x4
Nanite Repair Paste x552
Optimal Range Script x4

 

As implants you could use this set of implants (or: the corresponding 6% implants):

Genolution Core Augmentation Full Set (CA-1 - CA-4)

-4% Cap Recharge EO-604
+4% Shield Capacity SM-704
+4% Cap Capacity EM-804
-4% Sensor Linking SL-904
+4% Armor HP HG-1004

This fit would allow scimis to fit 4 links while still beeing cap stable with 3 reps and getting enough tank for incursions (about 15k ehp). This fit has as much tank as WTM's currently optimal fit for scimi's, but has one link less. The extra link can help the fleet a lot completeing sites faster, resulting in a higher ISK/h. (Also, adding light drones to all logi ships instead of the hull drones does add up another recognizeable amount of dps, which should be the new standard in WTM fleets.)

Next, I want to point out, that putting an invuln on a scimi has no point. If you just put one LSE on it, it already has 6k ehp more than even fitting it with a C-type Invuln. Though you must fit two power Diagnostics (or one faction) to be able to fit one LSE on a scimi, but just look at the numbers: Fitting a scimi with an LSE gives more ehp, as much links as with an invuln and it is still cap stable with 3 reps. So, what's the point in fitting an invuln on a scimi?

A fit could look like this - the new 'Intermediate' fit for scimis with an LSE:

[Scimitar, *Buzz Buzz]
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

10MN Afterburner II
Large Shield Extender II
Remote Tracking Computer II
Remote Tracking Computer II
Remote Tracking Computer II

Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

 

Warrior II x5
Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x2

Tracking Speed Script x4
Nanite Repair Paste x552
Optimal Range Script x3

It only costs about 350 mill, has more tank and is also cap stable. So what is your opinion on the 4 links scimi? I have tested it already and I have to say it is amazing. I really hope I can fly that in WTM fleets, too. :P

Thanks!

 

 

Scimi_Intermediate.PNG

Scimi_V_4_links.PNG

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Posted (edited)

The problem with an LSE is that it increases the sig radius significantly. A scimi's tank is not really based on actually tanking; instead it tries to run its afterburner and dodge incoming volleys. When you put an LSE on, in exchange for the greater buffer you are essentially making the ship wider, making it easier to hit, and ruining the whole idea of "sig tanking." Resist tanking does not increase sig radius, and has the added benefit of using less powergrid (good for new people getting into logi for the first time), and making incoming reps more effective (via higher resistances). 

 

As for the four-link scimi, you should not be just looking at "ehp," but also at how much of it is in shield, armor, and structure.

Our optimal fit, with perfect skills, has almost the same ehp overall (14,897 4TL vs 14,901 WTM) However, on the WTM fit, most of this is concentrated in the shields, whereas on the 4TL scimi it's split almost evenly between shield, armor, and structure. (WTM fit has 8175 shield ehp vs. 4TL which has only 5375 shield EHP). In WTM fleet, we are shield tanked. Our logi have shield reppers. We cannot rep armor or structure nearly as effectively or quickly, so we want to maximize our shield ehp. That's why a damage control is simply not enough on its own. 

 

We've run the numbers on this, over and over again. Adding an LSE makes you an easier target to hit and hurts sig tank significantly. Using only a DCU as tank give not enough shield HP, even if the "total" ehp is the same. An invul offers more shield tank without increasing the sig radius. Our scimi fit will stay as it is. 

For reference, I used PYFA with all 5 skills and no implants to compare the fits. 

 

edit: a word

Edited by tesso

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What purpose does the tank of a logi really need to fullfill?

I think it is surviveing the time between the shansha targeting you and the first incomming rep from an allied logi. Yes, if you fit a damage control instead of an invuln the tank shifts from the shields into armor and structure. But does it matter? The ability of equipping another link is far more valueable than a littlebit more ehp in the shields. You won't die because of it, as the ehp is the same. You may need to rep  a littlebit of armor afterwards you get agro, but as WTM fleets are shield-tanked, once you are stabilized, this is not an issue. The armor drones can take as much time as they need to rep your armor damage, if you even get there. You don't need to rep armor and structure effective or fast.

So if the tank is enough, and even though it is mostly not in the shields, you have the advantage of another link. Which is great and helps the fleet a lot. So why not test it out? We could at least try it out. Newbro logis don't have to fly this, but thoose of us who want to help the fleet to get faster should be allowed to fly this.

The fit I posted is meant to be an advanced scimi fit for people who want to take incursions to the next level.

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A scimi has to have enough shield to take at least one full-on strike from Sansha. Otherwise the first solid hit comes in, and scimi is in half armor. We rep like mad, and second hit puts it in structure. We rep again... and it's gone. This is how scimi's die in TCRC entrances. Losing its invuln makes the scimi fragile enough that it would also happen on wave four of the NRF, and possibly during the deltole/deltole/intaki wave in TPPH.

If we make changes to the scimi, it will become more tanky not less.

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Okay so I just did some fitting things in PYFA. It seems that the main concern with the LSE scimi is that it blooms the sig too much compared to the invuln scimi, and the issue with the 4 link scimi is that its not tanky enough. With genos and a 6 percent 8 slot implant, I made a 3 rep stable 4 link scimi that matches the tank of a scimi that we allow in fleet. It is slightly less tanky than our optimal scimi. Honestly, the only reason I would say that this fit doesn't work in our fleets is becuase staggering reps on this scimi is KEY to its survival. Any other form of repping is going to end up like Imelda said. 

Also, if you are super confident in your logi skills, I would recommend applying for resident. The application is here. There are some perks to being an LM ya know....

image.thumb.png.b6eba6187527e9c905d24685554e7807.png

image.thumb.png.c9f28f1ea050c8dac4f59af7ab5e525a.png

image.thumb.png.576800ec52ff334f0b46231fba186a73.png

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Blobert, that four-link scimi takes 40% more damage than our optimal when hit. Remember what Tesso said above: look at shield HP and resists, not at the EHP total. Remember what I said: scimis die when Sansha can cut through 100% of shield on a hit, even if we have reps on them. Every time I see one of our current scimis slam down to 1/3 shield and say "oh my drop TWO reps on that one," four-link would be dead. I ain't having it.

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4 link scimi: 7.6 shield ehp

t2 invuln + dc2: 7.55 shield ehp

pith c invuln: 7.79 shield ehp

So unless i'm just reading the completely wrong numbers, I did take into account shield vs total ehp. And I even acknowledged that what you said about scimis are correct. However, as Knightandday said, this scimi fit would only be for people who actually know what they're doing. So on time broadcasts as well as possibly manual piloting. If your argument is "well my reps don't rep as much because that scimi doesn't have as high resists" then I would just point you in the direction of the LSE scimi. Despite not allowing it in WTM and some people having very strong opinions on it, that scimi fit does work and can tank a site just fine. The main issue with the 4 link is that if it gets super webbed or capped out and basically stops moving then its probably gonna die, just like most of the other scimis. And again, because this fit would be designed for knowledgeable pilots, they shouldn't be getting initial aggro in a tcrc anyway, all the other spawns they should be too far away to get instantly alpha'd or webbed.  I am not advocating that this be allowed as a standard fit for us (at least not right now), just saying that this guy has some validity to his ideas.

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As you can see, Imelda, 4L-scimis don't take 40% more damage. Why should they? This fit has as much tank as a normal WTM fit, and there is nothing wrong with it. The only disadvantage it really has, is the fact that you need implants to get it cap stable. You are always talking about the tank, but you don't see the idea behind this fit.  It is the answer to the question, how you possibly could fit 4 links to a scimi without any MAJOR disadvantages. Does it has a littlebit less shield? Yes of course it has! But as Blobert has pointed out, it doesn't really matter. Imelda, you cannot prevent every single death of scimis just by adding a bit more tank. Most of the people who die, die because of late broadcasts or because they are not paying attention, and you know that. So please don't blame the fit for it. Everybody can decide wich fit they want to use, and if you decide to take a scimi with more tank, that is just fine. But as this is an advanced fit for experienced pilots, they probably know how to fly it. You as a leadership shouldn't prevent fits like this, just because you got used to the current ones and don't want to change them.

WarpToMe always claims that it is a "learning community" and that we always try to optimize things to get the sites running faster. I am not asking of you to change the standard fit for scimis. I just want to get this 4-link scimi fit to be allowed. If someone dies in this fit, he probably would have died also in a different, more tanky fit.

 

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OK, lets start with a couple of things:

1 - WTM has always run "Ships not skills."  This is so that our fits are not difficult to get into.  Our current method of accepting fits onto the waitlist and into fleet does not enable us to skillcheck.  Nor does it enable us to check implants.  That means we cannot confirm that a pilot flying a 4 link scimi has the ability to be 3 rep stable.  It is the same reason we fit Basi's the way we do.

2 - WTM runs higher tank than strictly necessary across all fits to compensate for the newbro friendly aspect of our community.  So a new pilot of any ship should be confident in the safety of their ship providing they broadcast on time, and that if that fails then SRP will ensure that they can fly again.

3 - WTM has advanced Logistics pilots, who run different fits.  This is the advantage of being a Resident and LM.  I love the passion and the thought that has gone into this.  Consider joining the program so you can help shape future policy.

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What are you even talking about.

1 - Why do you want to skill check or implant check them? How do you know that a newbro logi has logistics 4 and not 5? It would work the same way.

2 - What?!? This fit is an ADVANCED fit for EXPERIENCED pilots, and NOT NEWBROS. Did you even read the previous comments on this topic?!?

3 - No, I will not be a LM for WTM. At least not until I can join with my 4L-scimi in WTM fleets.

 

If you (not you, Juan Carlos) cannot bring a valid argument why this fit should not be allowed in WTM fleets, than PLEASE change rules.

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46 minutes ago, Knightandday558 said:

1 - ... How do you know that a newbro logi has logistics 4 and not 5? It would work the same way.

We don't. We ask them to tell us. Theoretically we could automatically request it, but it would require our waitlist to request a lot more permissions from you when signing in, and we do not believe our pilots should be forced to give us those permissions, because it is a massive invasion of privacy. (We would be able to see way more than what would be relevant to incursions.)

46 minutes ago, Knightandday558 said:

 

2 - What?!? This fit is an ADVANCED fit for EXPERIENCED pilots, and NOT NEWBROS. Did you even read the previous comments on this topic?!?

How do I identify that someone is an EXPERIENCED pilot, and NOT NEWBROS, and thus I should allow them to use this fit rather than forcing them to switch to a tankier ship?

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Just a little bit of advice for ya Knight: if you want change (which it seems you do), the best way to do this is not to be abrasive to the people who possibly CAN make change. Even if it is not your intent, the way your wrote your post makes it seem this way. 

You said that you would not apply as an R badge because you could not fly your 4 link scimi. Some of us are saying that if you apply and get accepted, you might be able to fly your 4 link scimi in the future. Becoming an LM is pretty much our version of advanced-super-awesome-and-amazing logi pilot. Especially as Juan said, we can see that there has been some thought gone into this idea so if you joined the Command Core you might be able to bring more people in on your idea. 

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2 hours ago, Knightandday558 said:

What are you even talking about.

1 - Why do you want to skill check or implant check them? How do you know that a newbro logi has logistics 4 and not 5? It would work the same way.

2 - What?!? This fit is an ADVANCED fit for EXPERIENCED pilots, and NOT NEWBROS. Did you even read the previous comments on this topic?!?

3 - No, I will not be a LM for WTM. At least not until I can join with my 4L-scimi in WTM fleets.

 

If you (not you, Juan Carlos) cannot bring a valid argument why this fit should not be allowed in WTM fleets, than PLEASE change rules.

Nice rage post.

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@Kimina Tanai

1 - ... How do you know that a newbro logi has logistics 4 and not 5? It would work the same way.

1 hour ago, Kimina Tanai said:

We don't. We ask them to tell us.

-> Exactly. At least someone understands what I am telling. This is why you don't need to check for skills / implants, because you also do not check if someone has logistics 4 or 5. Someone could lie to you about their skills and you won't notice it. So if you want to determine if someone is capstable with 3 reps in a 4L-scimi, you would also have to ask and trust in what they are saying. Just as you do with the logistics 4 or 5.

1 hour ago, Kimina Tanai said:

How do I identify that someone is an EXPERIENCED pilot, and NOT NEWBROS, and thus I should allow them to use this fit rather than forcing them to switch to a tankier ship?

Well how do you identify newbros in a fleet?

Probably the same way you could give someone the advise to switch to a tankier ship. Also there is this little check box on the waitlist which says "FC, what do". More you really don't need. And it is already there.

@Blobert

Maybe I did rage a little bit, but if someone asks stupid questions.... Well that is the result. :P

59 minutes ago, Blobert said:

You said that you would not apply as an R badge because you could not fly your 4 link scimi. Some of us are saying that if you apply and get accepted, you might be able to fly your 4 link scimi in the future. Becoming an LM is pretty much our version of advanced-super-awesome-and-amazing logi pilot. Especially as Juan said, we can see that there has been some thought gone into this idea so if you joined the Command Core you might be able to bring more people in on your idea. 

I will not aply as an LM. I have read the requirements and I know that I don't fullfill them. I don't want to "backseat" training fc (whatever that means) and I also don't want to take over command over the fleet even in emergency situations. I am not the person for this, and I know that.

@Bruce Warhead

Thanks - I am proud of it as I do not often rage.

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5 hours ago, Juan Carlos Minjita said:

So you want to see change, but won't actually take the steps to do it.

What has my decision to do with the 4L-scimi beeing accepted? I don't see any advantage of beeing an LM. Neither would it help me that you accept my fit, as the arguments are the same. The people, who can change the rules, are you. So why do I need to be part of the Command Core. I am just a normal WTM member, who wants to fly his 4L-scimi.

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3 hours ago, Knightandday558 said:

What has my decision to do with the 4L-scimi beeing accepted? I don't see any advantage of beeing an LM. Neither would it help me that you accept my fit, as the arguments are the same. The people, who can change the rules, are you. So why do I need to be part of the Command Core. I am just a normal WTM member, who wants to fly his 4L-scimi.

Because the people that get to set the rules to what THEY think is good and works for the community are those Command Core members, you don't want to be part of. :)

(You might very well discuss on the forums about it, but if they tell no it will stay a no) And as some one mentioned here, there is the decision ATM that the fits/rules that are offered by WTM are good for public pilots.
And there are exceptions for known people (Command Core Members) if the current FC of the fleet is also okay with it, because they also know that there are other fits that can be flown if you are capable to do it and they know them good enough to know they can handle it and won't e.g. forget to put their implants in.

 

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Hi there, I'll try to respond in depth later, but briefly: no, your 4-link scimi will not be accepted today.

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Okay so as I don't see any progression in here and WTM clearly does not want to move forward, I don't see any reason to fly with WTM anymore. So I was looking for other communitys and I have decided to join TVP as they are far more elite then WTM ever will be.

I just want to thank you guys for the last half year I was flying with WTM, it was a great time. I enjoyed the fleets with niki lasvegas and Sarevok the most, so a huge thank you for you two <3. Maybe I will come and check out your fleets by now and than, but until then:

-1 WTM member

Fly safe o7

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On 5/4/2018 at 5:06 PM, Knightandday558 said:

What has my decision to do with the 4L-scimi beeing accepted? I don't see any advantage of beeing an LM. Neither would it help me that you accept my fit, as the arguments are the same. The people, who can change the rules, are you. So why do I need to be part of the Command Core. I am just a normal WTM member, who wants to fly his 4L-scimi.

Warp To Me command core are allowed to "Test" fits that are statistically deemed viable but need confirmation before they roll out.
If you became a Logi Mater or Resident you would probably be given permission to fly your 4-link scimi so we could get some hard statistics on it through real flight rather than just saying "yes, it COULD work in theory".

Refusing to make the steps to make your ideas possible is why the world in general is in such a bad state.

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing". should fit nicely to your attitude in this thread.

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