Fleet Efficiency - suggestions -

[KFrost 2]

Hey guys, I've been thinking, what if we could be a little more efficient aka run sites faster? 

At this point the only reason I can see for WTM being a bit less efficient than, say TVP for example, is because of the ships that get accepted. Now I'm not saying not to accept newbros and sub-optimal anymore, I'm just saying that maybe the number of sub-optimal fits accepted in fleet should be a little lower, that way those with optimal ships will have priority over the sub optimals, and also newbros/sub optimal will still be able to join, make isk and be motivated to upgrade faster.

Imo this way people will have to upgrade their ship faster, since no other fleet will accept them either if they don't, and our fleets will be more isk efficient.

So the way I'd go about it is, set a minimum number of optimal ships to be accepted in fleet, ahead of starter/sub optimal, and then fill the rest of the spots with starter/sub.

I'm sure command can figure out what the numbers should be since you have plenty of experience.

I'm only suggesting this coz I really like the WTM community and I'd like to see that the good job the FCs are doing gets rewarded with more isk/h, and I'd also like to see WTM be able to be more successful against other fleets that are more exigent about what fit they accept, therefore having the advantage over us most of the times.

Regards, 

KFrost

[Skyler Scar 27]

So about 8 months ago we actually looked at and cut a few ships and tweaked a few rules to try and make things somewhat more optimized. It also depends on the FC themselves, with our current fleet setup it’s possible to make pretty decent ISK already. But some FCs just prefer a more laid back style and are there to get out of the daily RL grid and want to relax and make a little ISK at the same time. We have looked into the options you suggested in the past but it was decided that it doesn’t quite fit WTM’s culture of actually being new to friendly and a somewhat more laid back community. Rather than feeling like another job.

[Maximus EnvictoTalon 92]

Hey Karen Frost,

I can understand your position. Everything said by Skyler is true. WTM hopes that as pilots invest more in themselves they get better as pilots with better ships and have the ability to use more advanced fits. Its cool when you have some really have a fleet that kicks some serious ass and everyone has a great time. Sometimes this doesn't happen but sometimes you have to hope that people will want work harder.

WTM despite being considered the underdog of the HQ communites. I don't think our success is limited by the number of optimal ships we have (it certainly helps) but by the kinds of pilots we have that x up. You get of bunch of people committed to the fleet; things go faster. I would rather have 3 hyperions chasing down and blasting a couple of ostis than one lack luster optimal vindi that can bother to web or be in range of their target.

Besides limiting the number of non-optimal hulls and requiring skill checks/reqs, what would you want to see? Do you want DPS crash courses? Do you think we should put out vids of how to pilot better for each ship class? Would rather see more community events? Any cool ideas?

Thanks,

Max

[KFrost 2]

Well, the DPS crash courses would take time and I'm not sure many people would take them, even tho' most newbros (including me) have no idea what they're doing when they 1st join. It took me a couple days to get comfortable with running incursions, and now flying DPS is second nature and I really like DDD-ing. But then again my motivation is that I wanna be good at what I do, and not just blindly make isk off the backs of others, so I always learn what others are doing, what the FC is doing,  just so I know what to do if I'm given a role or just so I don't have to wait for the VVV to show me where my anchoring is and just so I don't have to wait for tags to know that I gotta shoot Arnons before the Outuni or Deltoles and Intakis before Osties

I really want to learn, and it motivates me to spend my isk on a better ship, fit and skills, but for some people it doesn't work that way, they just sit there and follow tags and just do what they're told, put in the minimal amount of effort, and as long as they get payout they don't give a damn, and I'm pretty sure that if they do that, they aren't chasing after Osties either. That's why I thought maybe the restrictions would be a good idea, I thought them to be some sort motivation for the people that don't really wanna get involved much, but still wanna run incursions.

About the youtube videos, sure, those aren't too much of a pain to make, adding a couple vids to the guides would probably help, many people rather sit there and watch a video than read a wall a text about what to do, especially for roles; as for the events, I don't know about that, I think most of the people that would join are the ones that are already veterans in WTM, and unless it's something like "Low-Sec Incursions Day" to make others curious about it, I'm not sure they're worth it  

All in all, I'm fine with WTM the way it is anyway, I just figured some easy changes here and there could improve efficiency, but it's not a big deal. I fly WTM coz of the cool people, if I was desperate for isk I'd join TVP, but I can't stand them, so I'd rather not, lol

See ya in fleet,

KFrost 

[Nara Arramor 2]

speed. if there's one thing i remember about running fleets (back in the day as the kids say), it was the wait times on gates and the times to get out of site. if you ready the align with a few ships left before site payout, remembering to state it is an align clearly so that people don't leroy out of their payouts, and then be aware of the logi you have on the next gate, you can just pop on in and fill as the site progresses. the exception to this would be a tcrc when you need to be sure your mtac is present, ddd is present, and appropriate logistics are on gate with you and awake. the quicker you get in and out of sites the times it takes to finish those sites seem faster. at least from my POV it does. last time i FC'd and it was a couple of years ago, WTM didn't have the standards as high as they are now, so it might go a long way to work on those in and out times because that goes a long way to improving efficiency without needing the fleet to be the best-fit.

[Aman A'Mir 7]

I have to agree with Nara. Last fleet I ran we struggled for logi, and ended up spending way to long on many of the gates, or holding in sites so I could figure things out. This did cause fleet to make slightly less than our target ISK/HR. Part of that was fleet was dying the other part was scrub noob FC 
of course I dont care about my isk / hr as much as some. If I was doing this for ISK i would just rat in wh space and never come to HS. I do care about the fleet tho, that it is safe, rewarding, and fun.

The problem with only allowing a set number of sub optimal ships is, like Skyler said, it goes against the WTM culture. We run fleet comp on a first come first served basis, no more selective than deciding if we want a dps, sniper, or logi to fill a slot. If we start cherry picking fits, or favoring particular pilots because we know they wont sandbag or have better skills/knowledge than not only are we no longer operating first come first serve, but the whole point of WTM being a community which promotes teaching and developing pilots goes out the window. That last point is one of the main reasons I fly with WTM. 

[Imelda Virpio 179]

On 9/12/2017 at 9:04 PM, Nara Arramor said:

. if you ready the align with a few ships left before site payout, remembering to state it is an align clearly so that people don't leroy out of their payouts, and then be aware of the logi you have on the next gate, you can just pop on in and fill as the site progresses.

This is a) a big boost for isk/hour and b) one of the hard parts. Scary to take fleet into an NRF when you only see five logi on grid... but if you absolutely for-sure know the other two are incoming, it's the right thing to do.

[Lord Sarevok 51]

On 13-9-2017 at 6:04 AM, Nara Arramor said:

if you ready the align with a few ships left before site payout,

This seems really obvious as a line pilot, but especially for starting FCs it's harder than it looks. FC's are looking at the current site, -1's, the waitlist (both new X-es and invites) and roles that might need to be filled. Between all that, it's all too easy to suddenly notice that the last thing in a site already died and you missed the window to do this (it's only about 30 seconds long).

[Nara Arramor 2]

nrfs aren't scary at all unless you have 5 logi and are nearing the outuni wave, which can be dealt with in different ways depending on factors. i understand this is a training community, but the ships and skill levels of the pilots haven't devolved since back when i was an FC they've actually gotten better. 5 logi is enough to do the first 3 waves fine as long as you know your logi squad (know if they've been sluggish or distracted)-- this of course means the fc being more aware of that kind of thing etc. but my thoughts i admit are based on older times which i dont' know whether they translate to current wtm or not. 

it is true the waitlist is a whole new meta that wasn't around back in the day, but at the same time i imagine it saves some time having it if its even slightly faster than having to scan through the x ups in local. the fleets i ran then were late night (12-3am EST) and we were always struggling to fill fleet and i never had an assistant and had to do x ups, tagging, commands etc so multitasking came natural. now i would need to see the wl manager on that to be able to get an idea of how easy it is or not and obviously since i'm not an fc (not saying i won't be again just saying not at the time of this thread) i can't get a feel for it. -1s are indeed something to be mindful of, and i know some are better at keeping up with those than others. i was just saying that there are some fcs that wait moments even minutes after the site dies before choosing the next site, and that does slow down things. at the end of the day though, some fcs will be faster than others, some more strict than others, even comms may differ between fcs. tis part of the community instead of a military operation i guess. 

things arent bad at the moment as far as site exit/entry, they've gotten better. but the easiest thing in relation to how to speed up fleets is entry/exit without needing to be selective with fleet comp, ship doctrine, or comm control (battle comms). each FC is different, run your shift how you see fit  things have been improving overall which is always good.

[Juila Rose 6]

In my opinion, reading though each of the reply's here, i see a lot of things that are valid was/ suggestions that would go in a good step to improving efficiency, from limiting ships, to entering and exiting sites, to eliminating the tagged targets quickly. What i find personally to be the best way to have a fleet being efficient, is having the max numbers we need for fleet. More people is more damage, obviously, and that raises the point that you cant always have people online all the time because "real life" is a thing, but what if our pool of people was larger then their is a better chance of having more people in fleet at most times of the day. So my suggestion to gain more efficiency in fleet is actually a suggestion for more propaganda so spread WTM's renown  to more people in the eve community looking to run incursions. For example; I'm a new player looking to get into incursions because my friend said they are pretty good for starting out, but i don't really know eve's mechanics that well so i don't know how to find incursion groups. I'm sitting in station, spinning my ship; as most of us do, and im watching the ads in station, and i see ads for all kinds of things, including the incursions i'm looking to do, then i immediately go to whoever i saw to get started. +1 person in that pool. if we can be the first group they hear about were sure to get more numbers, and more efficiency, more isk for everyone. The more the new people run the more they will upgrade their ships, and they'll stick around could the WTM community is best community. 

Now i don't know if this has been a thing gone for in the past, if it has then maybe its time to try again, if not, i don't see how it could hurt. otherwise keep shooting out ideas for better efficiency, and we can keep moving down the road of progress!

[Weazzy Baebbee 0]

I can personally relate to the above comment well. I have been playing for a little over a year, with most of my experience in running with large fleets or small gangs in null. However, my ambition has grown to a point where I would like to participate in the more difficult aspects of PVE. From this feeling I see in my self, I think it is safe to assume that many others feel the same way. Especially those in the newbro end of things. Newer players have less of the inherent habits (good or bad) which makes them more malleable when it comes to fleet tactics and understanding. They are also, generally speaking, less connected or obligated to any one thing in the game; which makes them a perfect match for good marketing / recruiting. 

I say all of this, because I too am a new(ish)bro with hopes of finding dang good content along with a good flow of isk so that I can better explore the higher end EVE. Along with all of this, I have never actually run an incursion before, but because of intra-alliance talk and suggestions, I have been influenced to join in on the fun. I am looking for those that can provide a solid display of good management and leadership that is calm and collected (as well as inclusive). That is why I think that this notion of increasing your potential pilot base is key to improving efficiency. Along with this is also a willingness to invest in those new incursion pilots (such as myself) in order to make something like this a successful operation. To continue using myself as an example, I personally am excited to go through the trials of learning under the guide of experienced pilots such as yourselves, to then pass on this knowledge to other pilots extending the potential pilot base in ways that I can as well. I look forward to joining up and increasing said efficiency

Edited September 28, 2017 by Weazzy Baebbee

[McRuder 0]

I have been around incursions since they started in 2011. I possibly have flown with every community - BTL / TVP / TDF / ISN / DIN / WTM. With my credentials done, I can offer this: Community is Key. It is very dangerous ground when you start pushing players towards bling fleets, and start pushing for ISK/HR. I have seen what this does to communities first hand, and in the history of TVP I was one of the pushers (with Staples) towards this. When you start pushing those ideas, and FC's start only inviting the most experienced and most blingy, it will cause tears (pun intended) in the community. From experience I suggest that leadership and advanced players do things that build the community - be open and welcoming, mentor basic and intermediate level players and train/help newbros where required. Rather consider FUN/HR. That being said, there are methods to improve that I have learned from PVE and PVP fleet ops (WTM may already do some, but I will list them as they come to mind):

1 - One group had a fleet secretary position that managed -1's, invites, and general fleet comp. That allowed the FC to concentrate on running the fleet effectively. Secretaries were normally trainee FC (a good way to train FC). This system reduces downtime between sites, as well as reducing site completion times. One of the key things were that the replacements were already waiting at the next site entry for the main fleet.

2 - One group ran with a Fleet A and Fleet B during peak times. The A fleet were the advanced "bling" group running AS/HQ, and B fleet the new/basic/intermediate players running VG/AS. This way everyone got a chance to play, it provided a training opportunity for players and fleet roles. Obviously this depends on online numbers. 

3 - Official Training Officers. This is not something I often see in Incursion groups, but it is very effective in PvP. Basically people that assist with fits, and that takes small groups and teach them the basics. Incursions do have the smaller sites that can be used for this. It builds skill and confidence in runners and junior FC's.

4 - Official Marketing Officers and/or Recruiting Officers. There is so much that can be done with this to get the community known and draw in players. Get a recruiting video playing in stations. Even some good action videos on Youtube will go a long way.

5 - Consider using the smaller incursion sites: Scout and Vanguard. Scout sites still pay out good ISK for newbros, allowing them to use T1/Meta fits on cheaper hulls, while they train the required skills for the minimum AS/HQ fits (it is not that difficult to fit ECCM and spider tank for Scout sites). As above they are excellent training grounds for runners and FC. I see quite often players turned away because they either don't have the skills or the ISK for the minimum fits.

 

 

[Brok Haslack 2]

Right, this.

I was out in Null recently FC'ing Vanguards for Shields with Brave plus Legacy.  VG's are interesting, in that the bulk of the DPS is Tamas & their Torps. The Torps are 50% kinetic 50% explosive, and make up 55-60% of the incoming deeps.  Perfect for shields.

This means that a boat with 10k shield layer in highsec only needs: T2 Passive EM Ward, a thermal screen 1, and a T2 Invuln field, plus damage control, to satisfy tank.  Which means adapting HQ fits is real easy for most people.

So tank is pretty simple really.

Again modelling on PYFA Pulse-fit Nightmares do well against Romis & Augas. They can also hit Tamas & Eysters, but will have trouble with Renyns & Schmaels. They easily hit Deltolles. Their tracking is: 5.90 with Conflag, & 8.42 with Imp Navy Multi-freq, both out to 20km ( the orbit for the Romis drifts between 17km & 23km ). 1 Bhaalgorn per fleet is enough to give that Romi a bad day.  Arty Machs do struggle a bit when that Romi gets into it's orbit.

But...

 

[Leshak, VG Shield Leshak]
Sentient Damage Control
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II
Entropic Radiation Sink II

Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Target Painter II
Tracking Computer II

Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator II
Auto Targeting System II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II

Hobgoblin II x10
Berserker II x8

Tracking Speed Script x1
Nanite Repair Paste x50
Occult L x17795
Mystic L x18939

.........


With Occult it's 8.25 tracking out to 25km, & the Painter really helps.  That's better than Conflag.


I say this as if we get people bored or wanting to play with other stuff a VG Fun-fleet could work.  It will also take pressure off of the wait-list.

It's different. I don't mind being a Space Miner with my big ol' Leshy Mining Laser, but now we only have 1 Focus we need to make the most of it.


Just my 2p

Edited July 27, 2019 by Brok Haslack

[Toh Kay Manifess 69]

On 10/22/2017 at 7:44 AM, McRuder said:

I have been around incursions since they started in 2011. I possibly have flown with every community - BTL / TVP / TDF / ISN / DIN / WTM. With my credentials done, I can offer this: Community is Key. It is very dangerous ground when you start pushing players towards bling fleets, and start pushing for ISK/HR. I have seen what this does to communities first hand, and in the history of TVP I was one of the pushers (with Staples) towards this. When you start pushing those ideas, and FC's start only inviting the most experienced and most blingy, it will cause tears (pun intended) in the community. From experience I suggest that leadership and advanced players do things that build the community - be open and welcoming, mentor basic and intermediate level players and train/help newbros where required. Rather consider FUN/HR. That being said, there are methods to improve that I have learned from PVE and PVP fleet ops (WTM may already do some, but I will list them as they come to mind):

1 - One group had a fleet secretary position that managed -1's, invites, and general fleet comp. That allowed the FC to concentrate on running the fleet effectively. Secretaries were normally trainee FC (a good way to train FC). This system reduces downtime between sites, as well as reducing site completion times. One of the key things were that the replacements were already waiting at the next site entry for the main fleet.

2 - One group ran with a Fleet A and Fleet B during peak times. The A fleet were the advanced "bling" group running AS/HQ, and B fleet the new/basic/intermediate players running VG/AS. This way everyone got a chance to play, it provided a training opportunity for players and fleet roles. Obviously this depends on online numbers. 

3 - Official Training Officers. This is not something I often see in Incursion groups, but it is very effective in PvP. Basically people that assist with fits, and that takes small groups and teach them the basics. Incursions do have the smaller sites that can be used for this. It builds skill and confidence in runners and junior FC's.

4 - Official Marketing Officers and/or Recruiting Officers. There is so much that can be done with this to get the community known and draw in players. Get a recruiting video playing in stations. Even some good action videos on Youtube will go a long way.

5 - Consider using the smaller incursion sites: Scout and Vanguard. Scout sites still pay out good ISK for newbros, allowing them to use T1/Meta fits on cheaper hulls, while they train the required skills for the minimum AS/HQ fits (it is not that difficult to fit ECCM and spider tank for Scout sites). As above they are excellent training grounds for runners and FC. I see quite often players turned away because they either don't have the skills or the ISK for the minimum fits.

 

 

1) often times we do have somebody else doing waitlist while somebody FCs and most of the time they are training FCs learning about fits and fleet comp. But a lot of more experienced FCs prefer to do fleet comp themselves. If they are good it does not cut into site time because they do it during warps or after they call a wave and tag. Will never be forced but it is always an option.

2) Like you said this depends on how many members are on the waitlist. A little while ago it would have been fairly easy to get 2 fleets going but times have changed and incursions aren;t as popular as they used to be. Every once in a while we'll have two fleets but it is rare nowadays. Also we try to avoid having a "superior group" because a lot of people think thjis leans towards cherry picking and "elitist ideals which is a big contention when it comes to wtm.

3&5) We do have trainers in our community but we prefer to keep our training in HQs since that is what we run most of them time and you can typically run. which segways into your point into running smaller sites. We do run VGs pretty often but mostly to grind influence. Again we prefer to fly HQs because more people can fly in these and often there is one FC around willing to FC at a time and we are always aiming to do HQs anyway. People learn the ropes fast enough in HQs and we don't really want cheaper hulls/fits around anyway to be frank. We already offer cheap/weak hulls and those should be enough. Remember Incursions are technically end game High Sec content and should be treated as such. WTM already gives a lot of wiggle room on hulls.

4) this has been talked about multiple times within the command core and will possible be coming soon TM

[Izumi Uchiya MD 214]

Lol @Toh Kay ManifessManifess that guy posted in 2017

[Toh Kay Manifess 69]

9 minutes ago, Izumi Uchiya MD said:

Lol @Toh Kay ManifessManifess that guy posted in 2017

damn lmao @Brok Haslack posting on a super old post hahah

[Brok Haslack 2]

Just tools in the tool-box. With 1 spawn the heat might be on

[Sparta 72]

NECRO

[Brok Haslack 2]

Just to clarify.

Obviously I am not high command. But... I've been FC'ing VG's out in Null and we now have 2 big changes in EVE.

Blackout might be permanent.

Only 1 spawn in High Sec, which might be permanent.

That creates 2 possible trends.  More Incursion Alts for people, to replace big Null losses, and...

Generally more people returning to High Sec.


Between the 2 possible trends overflow Fleets may well be needed. Or the waitlist coud get silly.

It hasn't happened yet, but Variety is the spice of life

[Brok Haslack 2]

FYI:

Null-sec VG's ( where I FC'd ) you flew in full influence a lot of the time. So you'd have a booster like a Tengu, & 3 Logi ( Basis mostly ). The Basi fit was classic WTM, but here are the 2 tank options for Battleships:

 

[Bhaalgorn, Shield Null Bagel]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Gist B-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
EM Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Dark Blood Heavy Energy Nosferatu
Dark Blood Heavy Energy Nosferatu
Large Coaxial Compact Remote Armor Repairer

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

Caldari Navy Wasp x6

Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x1
Imperial Navy Gamma L x1
Imperial Navy Xray L x1
Conflagration L x5
Scorch L x1
Nanite Repair Paste x1337

.
 

[Nightmare, Shield Null 'Mare]
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II

Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Mega Pulse Laser II
Small Tractor Beam II
Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Republic Fleet Berserker x3

Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x12
Imperial Navy Gamma L x8
Imperial Navy Standard L x8
Imperial Navy Infrared L x8
Conflagration L x1
Scorch L x1

.

So, yeah, probably over-tanked for High Sec. We know from historical TVP data that the VG damage pattern is about 55% Tamas ( 50% Explosive 50% Kinetic ). So the Shield profile is actually pretty good. In High Sec 60% resists and 10k shield layer, with 2 Logi and a Tengu Booster, would probably cover it.  The above 2 fits would work without a Shield Boost ( if it was just info and skirmish ).

Tools in the Tool-box, should we need it for the future.
 

[Brok Haslack 2]

There is also the option of FC Fun-fleets.

Again VG, but the FC's get to be pilots in different sites as someone else does FC'ing. It should provide ISK & rest for those who are feeling the burn.

Another tool for the tool-box.

[Mask Ruford 6]

Why prop mods for VGs though? In HS atleast

[Sparta 72]

fits you run in null have little comparison to high sec fits due to faxes in null incursions Boldi and leronia were running hq with 2 logi i mean there a total different ball game and you go at them total different 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Sparta

[Brok Haslack 2]

1) We flew sub-cap. I left the prop-mods on by accident, but if you have gankers in system getting off of the beacon means that they have to come to you ( with the Sansha shooting at them ).

2) The tank was correct for Null sub-cap. No faxes. Basi power bebbeh.

3) I have a very smelly cat.

[Farah Black 14]

Personally i think that we should encourage ISK efficiency,  by doing thing how we should in each cite, and also try encorague alpha people To be omega and push them to optimal fits. This without segregating Alpha toons. 

Kind of our time and omega account cost something. The community can only straive if we keep omega people interested in the community. and more so from moving away to other communities.