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T'vaar Dekdarion

Entry-Level Logi - "Logistics" Skill is Zero

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"I'd like to try Logi, but the skill train is SOOO long."

"How many injectors do I need to fly a Basi?  20-ish?!?  Never mind."

"We have to stand down the fleet for lack of Logi."

"We don't have enough combat caps to take this site."

 

Anybody else keep hearing things like that?

Ideally there would be some way for curious or Logi-aspiring pilots to be able to get some field experience with the Logi role without needing to commit zillions of SP beforehand.  Similarly, it would be nice if there was a way for battleship pilots who don't have the Logistics Cruiser skill to be able to fill in and keep a fleet running rather than having to stand down the fleet for lack of Logi.  To those ends (and also because I like them), I've been looking at Ospreys.

[TLDR: Well-fit Ospreys might be able to plug gaps in Logi group when standard Logi pilots are not available.]

 

As it turns out, the spectacular hull bonuses on the Osprey make it possible to fit one such that it functionally mimics a Basilisk with a Logi-4 pilot and no remote sebo - including equal or better repping power and a combat cap (meaning that just like a Logi-4 Basi, adding it to the chain does not increase the total number of combat caps).  The beauty is that a "Logistics skill = zero" pilot can fly it.

The easiest scenario to fix is a shortage of combat caps.  If it's a choice between standing down the fleet or finding some combat caps, and no qualified Logi pilots are available, the fleet could put nearly ANY pilot in the following ship and fix the problem.  Even a pilot with absolutely atrocious skills can fly it and make it function as intended.  The pilot just has to be awake and understand how to respond to broadcasts.  Just plug it into the cap chain, give it two cap transfers, and it adds a net +3 combat caps to fleet.  The mids and lows in the fit below are flexible, but there is plenty of fitting space available to throw money at it to make sure it can tank adequately, and to address any other perceived weaknesses. 

[Osprey 0/5 EASY]

Sentient Signal Amplifier
Syndicate Damage Control
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System

Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Thukker Large Shield Extender
10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

 

On the higher end, if the fleet needs more actual Logi ships, the following fit will mimic a Logi-4 Basilisk in terms of cap-chain and repping power (total repping power is actually higher than a Basi).  The fit is tighter, and stability (even with 2x incoming cap transfers) requires max Caldari Cruiser and Shield Emission Systems skills, but again, a pilot with Logistics skill = zero can fly it.

The following fit is just an example for discussion - incursion fitting gurus should feel free to change it.  With adequate skills, though (per above), it plugs seamlessly into a Basilisk cap chain just like a Logi 4 Basi pilot, and has more repping power than the Basi does.  The main challenge is making it tank adequately - which more experienced minds than mine will need to assess.

 

[Osprey - Logi-4 Basi Mimic]

True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
Syndicate Damage Control
Dread Guristas Co-Processor

Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Thukker Large Shield Extender
10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Murky Compact Remote Shield Booster
Large Murky Compact Remote Shield Booster
Large Murky Compact Remote Shield Booster

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

 

Ideally, there is some way to keep a fleet running even with a modest shortage of Logi pilots.  Similarly, ideally there is some way for new or curious pilots to have an opportunity to try the logi role.  Osprey fits might fit the bill.  Those who know the sites and requirements (and risks) better than I do will have to make those determinations.  I'm interested to find out.

 

Thoughts, suggestions and feedback are welcome,

-T'vaar

Q&A:

Q. Wait, aren't those MEDIUM cap transfers on that Osprey?  That can't possibly be acceptable.

A. Yup, those are mediums.  But thanks to the incredible role bonuses on the Osprey hull, it turns out that a Medium "Regard" cap transfer from an Osprey delivers the exact same 324 capacitor as the Large "Regard" cap transfer from a Basilisk.  Thus, an Osprey with 2x mediums can merge seamlessly into a Basi cap chain.  (Put a Large on an Osprey and it delivers almost 1,000 cap.  Fitting 0/5 can be fun).

 

Q. It only has three large reppers - and they're not even T2.  How can it possibly out-rep a Basi?

A. Again, the amazing hull bonuses on the Osprey work differently than the Basilisk bonuses.  Whereas the Basi bonuses make each repper cost less capacitor, the Osprey bonuses make each repper deliver more rep.  Therefore, each Large "Murky" repper (meta 1) on an Osprey delivers 975 shield if the Osprey pilot has Caldari Cruiser 5, (900 shield if Caldari Cruiser 4), whereas each T2 repper on the Basi delivers 680 shield.  The cycle times are the same, so the Osprey's three reppers can rep 2,925 shield per cycle (2,700 with Caldari Cruiser 4), vs the Basi's 2,720.  The Osprey's range is a little better, too.

 

Q. Isn't it expensive for a T1 cruiser?

A. Depends how you think about it, I guess.  The bulk of the cost is in modules that can be moved to any other ship later on.  The committed cost (hull and rigs) isn't so bad.  Also, the fitting gurus may find ways to make it less expensive.  The above fits are, again, just an illustration of concept.  Also, how much is it worth to be able to keep a fleet up and running rather than standing down for lack of Logi?

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Oh sweet sweet tvaar. Convo me in game orgrab me on come and we can chat. :D

 

Sorry that was a bit short, kimina and I actually talked this over last night, so if you want either of us can go over it with you. Short answer though is no it won't work for some issues not mentioned in your post.

Edited by Onizuki

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In addition to what T'vaar has said, I'd like to point out that the osprey does have several stats that are better than the basi's as well as several shortcomings that are a cause for concern. I am extremely interested in seeing whether this hull may have a place in WTM, and urge constructive discussion.

The osprey's total rep power is higher than the basi's. Following the rule of reserving one shield rep for response to emergencies does not change this; 2 reps from the osprey are on par with 3 reps from the basilisk by a whopping 100hp less per (group) cycle. The osprey's shield reps also have a longer falloff by 5 km and slightly further optimal range by about 3 km. 

A note should be made that the osprey's max speed is a bit higher than the basilisk's; because our logi speed tank, this might make up for a small portion of the tank difference that isn't immediately obvious on paper.

 

Now I will state my concerns about the osprey fit, which come down to requiring some pilot skill. Firstly, the osprey has 8 max targets rather than the basi's 10 (or in my case, 12). The osprey also has one fewer remote rep available. While the osprey's repping power is greater, staggering reps across multiple people and keeping reps available for future broadcasts will be more difficult due to having only 3 remote shields. 

If the tank gap between the osprey and basi is 'safe' but still present in the final fit, the osprey pilot has less leeway with time required to fix their speed and orbit and respond to incoming damage and webs. These aren't that terrible considering that our scimitars are affectionately knows as "flying coffins," but I believe this difference is still important to note.

One of my main causes for concern is lock times on the osprey. The osprey requires 0.9 additional seconds to lock battleships, and an additional 1.1 seconds to lock cruisers. The cruisers are what concerns me, as this lock time increases further for locking other logis who use implants that reduce sig radius. 

Overall, resolving these issues comes down to a pilot's skill. In theory, a skilled and perceptive pilot who can quickly respond to shield broadcasts, opportunities to decycle reps, in-position broadcasts, and has an awareness of their surroundings can utilize the osprey as a L4 Basi. Obviously these traits are desired in ALL of our logi pilots, but the osprey has less 'wiggle room' than the basi does for response times and in my opinion would be the more difficult ship to fly between the two.

 

With all of this being said, I would rather see the 0/5 osprey in an HQ fleet than the 3/2 osprey. The 0/5 does not have to respond to shield broadcasts; its only function is making up for a combat cap deficiency and eliminates any issues the osprey has with increased lock times and harder-to-manage reps. I would be comfortable seeing an inexperienced pilot in an 0/5 osprey because the combat cap role is far easier and simpler to manage. The 3/2 osprey, as of right now, poses a safety risk to HQ fleets. If we are at the point of standing down the fleet for lack of rep power, I would rather stand fleet down than accept an inexperienced logi pilot in a 3/2 osprey. I would propose that anyone who is trusted logi or better be allowed to use this fit, but that defeats the purpose of the fit as these people must have already flown in a t2 hull.

I think a proper place for a 3/2 osprey, and one that T'vaar and I have spoken briefly about, is for 'training fleets.' A training fleet would run only assault-class incursions, require at least one basi in the cap chain, and require an LM to be present within the cap chain. This addresses the issue that T'vaar was most concerned with - offering pilots an opportunity to test out a logi ship with WTM and deciding whether they enjoy it before sinking a month+ into the skills required to fly a basilisk or scimitar. This also addresses an issue that I am concerned with, which is NG logi pilots. I have seen a logi pilot not be given any sort of speech until they've already completed a site, some pilots who do not have their basic windows such as broadcast history and watchlists set up, etc. Not all NG logis have this issue - some fit right in and perform satisfactorily - but in situations where a new logi is joining mid-site while being given a load of information and having to learn in a busy scenario can be overwhelming. Training fleets could be organized and scheduled as a supplement to logi schools and used as a training opportunity that would both allow non-logi pilots to dip their toes in the water as well as help inexperienced pilots become accustomed to how incursion fleets operate before being thrown into the more-overwhelming HQ sites. The training fleets could extend to NG damage, sniper, and t2 logis as well.

 

As T'vaar put it, if Warp to Me wants quality logi pilots, it is up to us to make them.

Edited by Fatal Cruxington

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So, here's some input from an FC that doesn't want to have anything to do with Logistical talk, and yet has listened in on many, many discussions from years back about this very topic...

FCs want one thing from Logis: Consistency. When we start incorporating ships like the Osprey that can rep (and arguably just as well), consistency goes out the window. The thing is Osprey Logi differs so much from the standard Basi and Scimi (3/2 setup, longer lock times, cap chain requirements), that we would have to start putting that in consideration with our required Logi numbers.

We are so very strict on what a Logi ship is, to the point that we have an entire department and command core dedicated to that, and that doesn't go without reason. Fleet safety is a very, very big thing that has been hardened to fucking bedrock by Logi Masters over the past years, and when we start talking about ships outside of the standard Basi/Scimi, you're pounding your fist against this bedrock. Absolutely everything about this ship has been analyzed under an electron microscope, and it has yet to set foot in the SRP realm, for reasons that I can not entirely list because I've forgotten them, but I trust the many, many Logi Masters that have made those decisions.

And about the 0/5 Osprey, it's unnecessary. We have the standard 0/6 basi, but that's rarely used. Logi Masters have the 3/3 basi card that is commonly used if they have a concern about combat caps. But here's the thing: When an FC says "We don't have enough combat caps to take this site", it means that there are other options in system, and would rather do those. An FC will never stand down a fleet due to insufficient combat caps. While we "require" 2 combat caps for a TPPH, it's absolutely doable with 0, it's just a change of tagging. Our ships are designed to tank the final Outuni wave without hardeners, just as long as all the other waves are dead (no pushing waves). Hell, I've done NRFs and TCRCs with 0 combat caps. I wouldn't necessarily recommend them unless you're absolutely sure you know what you're doing, but bottom line: an FC will not stand down due to insufficient combat caps. There are always options in that regard, and a 0/5 Osprey isn't one of them.

Edit: I don't mean to take an axe to this suggestion, I love suggestions to what we're doing. I'm providing input to what has been discussed so many times before.

Edited by Foshkey

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Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far.  For the record, I am not trying to push Ospreys into fleets.  I enjoy the R&D process, and it occurred to me that Ospreys might address some situations we face sometimes.  If they ultimately don't work for whatever reason, I can accept that.  I am new to the community and am unaware of old, long-buried controversies.  The conversations I DID have with current LMs on this matter gave no hint that it had ever been seriously considered before.  Rather, the responses I got were more ones of surprise, such as, "That's even POSSIBLE?!?  Holy cow.  That's interesting."  I appreciate that the community is thinking (has thought?) about the idea conscientiously rather than just discarding out of hand.   

 For the record, I was not envisioning a world where we allow people to X-up with Ospreys.  Rather, I was thinking we might have one or two stand-by Ospreys pre-fitted and available for FCs to use at their own discretion.   If FCs have the ability to successfully cope with a variety of non-standard Logi situations (no combat caps, under-Logied, etc) and run sites anyway, then they can likely also cope with having an irregular Logi ship in fleet.  They would be free, of course, to decide not to do so.  The opportunity I thought I saw was that we might be able to give them the option to decide TO do so if they wished.

For instance, I thought if an FC has access to a stand-by Osprey and wants more Logi, but is short of Logi pilots, perhaps s/he knows of one or two battleship pilots that s/he'd trust to run the Osprey properly.  If s/he does (and that pilot is willing), then great.  If s/he doesn't, or doesn't want to be bothered, or for any other reason, s/he could simply choose not to.  Similarly, if it's close to down-time and the fleet is flying fine but only has 35 people in it, perhaps the FC would be willing to let an aspiring Logi pilot fly an Osprey as the 36th person, to build experience and learn the sites.  Then again, perhaps not.  FC discretion.

Regarding pilot competency, there are plenty of reasons a competent pilot might be available but a Basi/Scimi is not.

(a) Perhaps a Basi pilot's Basi was destroyed in the last Mom site and hasn't been replaced yet.
(b) Perhaps a pilot flies Logi on his main, but runs incursions in a battleship alt.
(c) Perhaps a pilot flies T1 Logi in null fleets but hasn't trained or hasn't completed Logistics prereqs yet.
(d) Perhaps a Logi pilot hasn't finished moving all his/her ships to the current site.

In any event, the basic question I was trying to address is "could an Osprey be fitted such that it can be safe and functional enough to function on a one-off basis in some or all of the situations we care about?"  Perhaps only for Assaults.  This was mostly a fitting question in my mind, and I needed people who have expertise with the site requirements to answer it, because I personally do not.

Two other important questions are:
1. Do we have confidence that acceptable pilots would end up flying the irregular unit?
2. Culturally, do we or do we not want to allow FCs the discretion to field the irregular unit?

If any of these answers is "no," then clearly we shouldn't field them.

A side question is: Are there circumstances where we'd be willing to use them as training vehicles for aspiring Logi pilots?

Again, I am not an Osprey salesman, and am fine with a "we're not interested" conclusion.  I enjoy the theoretical discussion, and I appreciate the consideration this has been given.

-T'vaar

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Sooooo, here's the thing this fit has several problems FOR ITS STATED PURPOSE. That's not to say it couldn't work as a regular part of out fleets, in fact I have a role I think would be interesting to consider it in, but its not any of the ones listed above. Also some of the LM's have discussed this fit and worked on it to adjust it bringing it down in price considerably, those fits are easily 600-700mil fits for a T1 logi.
Now on to why this can't / wont work for most of the use cases above:

  1. This osprey needs to be run as a Logi 4 pilot meaning 2 incoming cap transfers 1 out, thus does not solve any cap issues with fleet
  2. The lack of a 4th rep and max of 8 locked targets means ONLY a pilot already skilled at logi could fly this fit well and contribute as a logi
    1. for all other instances I would argue an FC couldn't count this for logi when deciding on sites
  3. This fit costs more than our standard basi (about 600mil+) and has pretty decent logi skill requirements, requires PG 5 CPU 5 and a full set of Geno's to fit, making it not a new bro friendly fit. This also covers as a replacement to waiting for a basi to be replaced as a non-issue
  4. Logi 4 is barely longer than T2 guns and support skills for those guns, the skill entry level isn't that high, Cruiser 5 is the longest train at 21+ days with the logistic prerequisites being 18 days + 4 for logi 4.

This fit is an interesting thought experiment, and by no means am I just shutting it down out of hand, but no. This ship will not be able to add to WTM fleets or expand the pool of logi pilots.

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Cool.  Thanks for the info.  The fit I posted originally does not require implants (the VERY original did not require Cruiser 5), but presumably was not able to tank enough.  Thank you to the LM team for doing the fitting exercise.  I'm interested to learn the specific fitting issues and requirements and improving in this area.

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A lot of people said good stuff, just throwing in my 2 bits because it's a fun idea.

TL:DR  Really creative, I love where it's coming from. Problems are tank, cost, and skills

I was really intrigued by this and threw some ideas around. We used to have some FCs and LMs that would take an Osprey out on a lark, and it made for a fun night. I found some options that are interesting academically, but none that I really like practically. If you try to clone the Basi fit over directly, you can get about 1/2 to 2/3 of the shield tank. You can make a tank that approaches Basilisk buffer....for a few extra hundred million, like double to triple normal Basi cost. The other half of that is the resists problem: looking at typical incoming DPS for Osprey/Basi, the basi receives 40% better effective reps. Since EHP is roughly resists * buffer, it is far better to accomplish that with resists. However, Fatal makes a good point about actual application, and the shiny fit would most likely survive. (The problem then, is that it is silly to shiny such a basic hull, with such a strikingly better option before you).

One thing I saw is that the 0/5 is far easier to accomplish than the 3/2. You can even make it effectively a Logi 5, running on 1 incoming. Trying to get large reps takes all kinds of PG, which means a bunch of added cost and lost tank. I will admit to you that the 0/5 fit looks like something I would entertain; however, as Foshkey noted, we have a lot of other options for handling cap issues.

Foshkey is also right that we need consistency. The real kicker here is skills. WTM has always had to battle with the skills issue. We build our fits knowing that newer players can be lacking in support skills, sometimes grievously so. However, there are certain requirements we set to give us some assurances. Many of the modules we fit have associated skill levels required, telling us that the pilot is sufficiently skilled in the areas we deem most crucial. With this Osprey fit, you have presented it as intentionally an option for lower-skilled pilots. The pre-reqs for Logi, especially the locking skills, ensure that reps land on time. A shield repping Osprey, additionally, drastically loses effectiveness below Cal Cruiser V....a hurdle which we might likely assume our fledgling logi had not yet cleared, so this basically relegates us to 0/5 fits. Throw in all the other cap, shield, and navigation skills, and I have no idea what kind of ship I just invited to fleet. This is the real kicker for me.

 

TL;DR redux: this ship removes the inherent safety nets we have to make sure safe pilots are flying logi. All this wall of text being said, if somebody brought a 0/5 Osprey with Pith-C invulns, I would totally take it for late-night fleet :)

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On 7/31/2016 at 2:19 AM, Izumi Uchiya said:

TL;DR redux: this ship removes the inherent safety nets we have to make sure safe pilots are flying logi. All this wall of text being said, if somebody brought a 0/5 Osprey with Pith-C invulns, I would totally take it for late-night fleet :)

I was recently dusting off my thoughts on this and on Logi training for new pilots, and was reminded that another LM had contributed a fit that used active hardeners for specific damage types instead of adaptives in an attempt to achieve an adequate tank at a lesser cost.  This configuration yields a similar EM/Thermal tank as the Pith-C 0/5 version cited in the quote, but is far less expensive.

In terms of tank, this Osprey 0/5 version has similar tank to an Optimal Basi as far as EM and Thermal go.  The Explosive tank is slightly higher (same resist but higher raw shield HP), but there is a Kinetic hole relative to the Basi (and versus the Pith-C version cited in the quote).

This particular version of the tank is somewhat mid-grade to keep costs down.  If more tank is desired, the A-type EM and Thermal hardeners could be upgraded to X-types, and the LSE could be upgraded to a more expensive one.

Similarly, if the cost is too high and the tank is greater than necessary, some modules could be downgraded to save some money.  Some of the faction modules could be downgraded to T2, and/or the CDFEs could be downgraded to T1.

[Osprey 0/5 - Specific Resists]
Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System

Pith A-Type EM Ward Field
Pith A-Type Thermal Dissipation Field
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Large 'Sheriff' Shield Extender
10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II

Osprey fits of this nature are extremely accessible in terms of fitting needs and skills (nearly ANY pilot will be cap stable with 2x incoming cap transfers, thereby adding a net +3 combat caps to fleet).  Thus, if one of the tank configurations is deemed to be resilient enough, this kind of ship could be used during those "late night fleet" opportunities as either training vehicles or as a means of keeping the fleet flying despite a lack of full-fledged Logi pilots to provide combat caps.

Edited by T'vaar Dekdarion
Edited for jargon/typos

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I will agree that having a "Step Stone" logi ship would be great in this day and age where we have alpha clones that can only fly up to cruisers, but obviously there is a lot that would have to go into the fittings and the effective implementation of these ships into the fleet, none of which at this point i would remotely know how to accomplish. At best what has to be a MUST with this is the cap chain ability, a the cap chain has to be stable with both the basi and ospreys, which theoretically is possible but would it be worth it. again i would love to see this though, maybe with time and research it can be done.

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I am not a Logi Master, but I am a logi pilot, having flown Guardians/Basi's in incursions for years. I am also a FC. I wouldn't accept a ship into fleet if I didn't think it could preform to our standards, and as a few other people said. With those fits, we can't be certain the pilots in question can safely fly a Osprey into fleet and hold up under fire, and still provide support to the fleet. If it came to a vote, I would highly suggest against this idea. Basi/Scimi's work wonderfully with our fleets, why put our fleets in danger because someone doesn't want to train skills?

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54 minutes ago, Cadre Arareb said:

With those fits, we can't be certain the pilots in question can safely fly a Osprey into fleet and hold up under fire, and still provide support to the fleet.

What metric are you using for this, or are you just going off of "I feel like this is true, so it must be true"? As stated above, the tank is similar if not better, though it has a larger kinetic hole (hint: irrelevant). The repping power per rep is equivalent if not better. If looking at the cap-only fit, it services enough capacitor requests to maintain safety under the most unusual circumstances (3 outunis, all split).

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that you haven't given me any data to go off of to say "this isn't safe enough for me". In the absence of data, I cannot accept your argument.

54 minutes ago, Cadre Arareb said:

Basi/Scimi's work wonderfully with our fleets, why put our fleets in danger because someone doesn't want to train skills?

Vindis Nightmares and Machs work great. Why let people fly an Apocalypse because someone doesn't want to train skills? There is something to be said about growing your fleet members rather than expecting them to be perfect right out the gate. Introducing people to incursions and letting people figure out if they want to do something is part of WTM's core existence. The fleet shouldn't bend over backwards for this, but I would need to see you justify why this puts the fleet in danger before outright rejecting a proposal like this without any thought.

Edited by Kimina Tanai
  • Upvote 1

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