Imelda Virpio

A fun fleet, of sorts - Come One, Come All

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Intro

 

Once again, I seem to have unusual ideas of what constitutes "fun." In this case, it's the notion of "optimizing fleet performance." The phrase keeps coming up... "too many Hyperions." But this is EVE, and the way to win fights in EVE is to bring more people. Too many Hyperions is a strength, and I'd like to see if we can use that strength. Of course, at the end of a site what we want is forty on grid, but up until the last few seconds? The more firepower, the merrier.

My initial idea about how to do this is to divide the fleet into a command group, and then multiple wings of battleships + logi. Everybody piles into a site, we kill stuff as normal, and then about twenty seconds before the end all of the "extra" wings warp off, leaving forty to get maximum payout. We keep payouts fair by staggering which wings leave early between sites; if Able and Baker go this time, Charlie and Delta go next time, or whatever. This should have several advantages over our current fleet structure; it'll be safer because we'll have a billion logi on grid right up until the end, there won't be any huge waits to get into fleet, and contesting us becomes very interesting.

I'm going to try and run this on Tuesday January 5, immediately post-downtime.

Fleet Organization

ON GRID wing, voice FC commanding (this is the command group)
-Logi squad, with 3-4 Basi and one 3-link Scimi. Scimi links to DDD. I
-DPS squad, with VVV, DDD, HHH
-Sniper squad with AAA

ABLE, BAKER, CHARLIE, etc. wings, with a battleship in wing command.
-Logi squad, two logi. Two Basi, two Scimi, or one Scimi + one Loki. Scimi should link to wing members.
-DPS squad with 6-7 battleships

OFF GRID wing
-Booster squad with various boosters
-one or several scout squads

With a ten-man command group and three battleship wings, we get 9-10 logi and forty people getting payout; it's our current fleet, with a funny-looking structure. With fifty people, we have four battleship wings, one warping out at the end of sites. With sixty... you see how it goes, but also, can I get a second booster and y'all early leavers go claim the next site? MAYBE. We'll probably try it.

So what do I DO in this fleet?

Most of the time, same as normal. Drop your drones, shoot the things, broadcast on time, all that good stuff. There is one important difference; you are going to have to KNOW YOUR WING. Somebody will probably tell you after you get in, but also, check the top of your fleet window occasionally:

image.png.27a59f7acff258d5a64153d9005e0bff.png

A minute or two before end of site, FC will announce which wings are leaving. About thirty seconds before, they'll drop an align broadcast. Get your drones and align! Ten seconds before the site ends, your wing commander will WING WARP you; take the wing warp. These times are approximate, I've never done this, I have no idea what I'm doing.

What about PAYOUTS?

If we're running 50% too many people (so only 2/3 of you get payout), we should also be running sites 50% faster (so payouts come 3/2 as fast). I think we'll even out. Ammo costs even out too; you get fewer payouts, but also have to fire fewer rounds/site. You *do* have more chances to lose drones, pay attention, don't lose your drones. All in all, Individual line pilots should be making the same amount of isk/hour as normal, just without having to lay around in Polstodur for several hours first.

So, that's the idea.

There's a lot of stuff I don't know yet. What do we do with people who x-ed up with multiple ships? What if there's four people left over from building wings, how do we fit those guys in?  Probably about six other things will come up. This is all highly experimental; I'm confident that I won't get everyone killed, but beyond that, *shrug*. If you've got any ideas, please say so.

We'll see how it goes.

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New WTM HQ fleet:  
55rayzxflz861.png

 

In all seriousness, if you can get the wing warping portion down it should make it a bit smoother.  I would recommend doing the actual warpout with 20 seconds left because you will inevitably have people not aligning, and 20 should catch the ones that forgot to turn their prop mod off as well.


One of the big downsides to this is going to be the organization of the fleet itself.  Adding logis to waitlists, finding people in the fleet comp for various reasons, etc. will be fairly annoying.

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27 minutes ago, Necricia said:

In all seriousness, if you can get the wing warping portion down it should make it a bit smoother.  I would recommend doing the actual warpout with 20 seconds left because you will inevitably have people not aligning, and 20 should catch the ones that forgot to turn their prop mod off as well.


One of the big downsides to this is going to be the organization of the fleet itself.  Adding logis to waitlists, finding people in the fleet comp for various reasons, etc. will be fairly annoying.

You're likely right about 20s, a  truly crap nightmare takes 17 seconds to align with its prop mod on. Also might need wing commanders to watchlist their wing members and tell me if anybody doesn't get off grid.. But then, just TIMING site ends that accurately is its own problem.. You're in an NRF, how many half-dead osti's and yulai's even is twenty seconds worth?

If this works, I expect shuffling wings and keeping track of who got payout to be a nearly full time job by itself, and I won't be surprised if I get two sites in and have to hand voice to somebody else :D .

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I could see this becoming a total mess if you invite every line member to it, but filling that second wing with trusted alts might work. What I'm a bit worried about is that it might start an arms race with other communities that we might not be able to win...

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Interesting idea, looks like a great weapon against contests. But please don't field more than 8/9 logis, 9 is already boring to death, and bored logis stop paying attention.

I'd expect overall isk/h to be slightly lower as site time doesn't decrease linearly with pilots number, maybe the fact that we can't be contested can make up of it.

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13 hours ago, Lord Sarevok said:

I could see this becoming a total mess if you invite every line member to it, but filling that second wing with trusted alts might work.

I gleefully look forward to considerable mess and at least one total payout welp. I mean, we'll try not to, but also, I'm bad at things.

9 hours ago, Juan Carlos Minjita said:

How will you manage the Basi Cap Chain? 

Per-wing cap chain! This is why I want 3 basilisks in the command group,  so we'll have combat caps to run sites.  Per-wing drone bunnies as well. This is going to need wing-chats, isn't it?...

5 hours ago, Yohan Hita said:

 please don't field more than 8/9 logis, 9 is already boring to death, and bored logis stop paying attention.

I understand this, but I can't not let people in because community-building. One thing I can say is that if we have THAT many logi, other opportunities open up. Don't worry,  you'll have reasons to stay awake.

3 hours ago, Anemone221 said:

I am down, for funsies can we have a missile boat wing?

Can a wing of pancakes eat a Vylade at 80km? I got Vylades I need killed.

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7 minutes ago, Imelda Virpio said:

I gleefully look forward to considerable mess and at least one total payout welp. I mean, we'll try not to, but also, I'm bad at things.

Per-wing cap chain! This is why I want 3 basilisks in the command group,  so we'll have combat caps to run sites.  Per-wing drone bunnies as well. This is going to need wing-chats, isn't it?...

I understand this, but I can't not let people in because community-building. One thing I can say is that if we have THAT many logi, other opportunities open up. Don't worry,  you'll have reasons to stay awake.

Can a wing of pancakes eat a Vylade at 80km? I got Vylades I need killed.

Considering Vylades have the sig radius of a barn, and move like a zamboni, pretty easily I think. xD

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Posted (edited)

I've actually entertained thoughts about trying to bring all my boxers along to overgrid HQ fleets.  It wouldn't come close to what I could make on my own, but I thought it would be fun.  I haven't done anything with the idea, however, because (1) I'm currently armor fit, (2) there's a good chance of me fucking up TCRC payouts, and (3) I was worried that it might encourage TDF to overgrid as well.

I was kind of waiting to hear how the experiment went, but since nothing was posted yet, here are some thoughts.

First, I think the easiest way to organize this is to have a paid and unpaid wing.  Have people on the waitlist first join the unpaid wing, and then have them move into the paid wing as spots open up.  It would make FC's job easier, it would help eliminate confusion over when line members should warp out early or not, and running without payout is better than sitting in station with your thumb up your ass.  And you'd know that once you finally did make the paid wing, you'd have guys helping to beef up your isk efficiency.  The downside of this method is that it would probably be harder to ensure that the unpaid squad is self-sufficient enough to start new sites before the rest of the fleet showed up.

I was also thinking that even if a few guys from the unpaid wing got scrammed during TCRC's, it wouldn't matter.  Payout would be reduced, but if we were running sites fast enough, it wouldn't matter.  

I think this is an arms race that we can actually win if we go all in as a community.  We have the largest community, so we'd definitely win when it comes to heartbeats.  I know TDF has a lot of boxers, but those boxers have a huge opportunity cost, because they could always be running VG's or whatever.  So, their HQ fleets would need to have an unrealistically high isk efficiency to make up for the money they'd be loosing when in unpaid positions.   -Edit: Actually, I've thought about this, and there are ways that they could make it work.  For example, if they had boxers split their toons between paid and unpaid wings, they probably could still exceed what they would make running VG's.

I really do think that this idea has merit.  I'm sure it will take work to iron out the kinks, but this could conceivably boost isk efficiency by a large amount, make waiting to get into fleet less shitty, and be a lot of fun.

Oh, and I'm not going to fit up 11 blinged out leshaks or anything, but if anyone wants to do some experiments with me, I already have some shield tanked vindis and nightmares, and am willing to fit up some shield tanked domis for the rest.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zane Chakaid

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I personally dont think this should be a regular thing. The idea was cool, but the execution is just not there and i dont think it is possible to be ever there.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Zane Chakaid said:

First, I think the easiest way to organize this is to have a paid and unpaid wing.  Have people on the waitlist first join the unpaid wing, and then have them move into the paid wing as spots open up.

This would probably lead to a bunch of people going "fuck no, if I'm not getting paid, I'm not doing anything". This would somehow require a WL tag for people willing to do it. This would then introduce the question if these people get the next available open spot, or if that spot goes to the person that's been on the WL for 2 hours.

9 hours ago, Zane Chakaid said:

It would make FC's job easier,

Except for the problem where you'd effectively need to run a second waitlist on a notepad somewhere (or hugely modify the current waitlist), to see who got in fleet at what time, because in the fleet itself, people get sorted by name in the squad, not by join time...

The only way I could see this work somewhat effectively is command core and maybe a few highly trusted line members bringing alts in an over-grid squad or something. Everything else will probably either become a mess and/or piss too many people off. :(

 

Edit: Oi! where'd my awards go? *goes request them back*

Edited by Lord Sarevok

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I've had a couple days to digest this, and read the various mails, and I've come to the conclusion that no, this *really* doesn't work. The most important reason is that there's a game mechanic that means this doesn't actually defend against contests. Second is that the fleet *itself* ran more slowly with more people in it. It feels like the general disruption around cap chains and drone bunnies would be a third reason, but that part we could practice out of.

A thing I didn't know at the start of the day, but did by the end, is that if you've got a fleet and some of them warp off before the end of the site, the damage those warped-off people did does not count for contest results! Apparently this is a Known Thing among old TVP guys, but I never flew with TVP. If we start with too many people on grid and get contested, we have to leave them on grid for the whole site. There's an interesting bit of game theory there-- sure, contest us and we'll lose but also, you won't win-- but it's not actually useful.

There were a lot of other things going on that made the fleet relatively slow. Most of those I think we could work out with time and practice. But this mechanic actually makes contests *worse* for us, and I just don't see a way to get around that. This was worth trying, but... nah.

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Posted (edited)

Thats strange. Im pretty sure that back in the days we managed to win a few contests with Blob and his swarm of snakes warping in, doing damage then warping off before the payout. Or do i remember wrong , @Blobert ?

PS: But yeah, either way im pretty sure its a bad idea on the long run for various reasons.

Edited by niki lasvegas

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On 1/7/2021 at 3:16 PM, niki lasvegas said:

Thats strange. Im pretty sure that back in the days we managed to win a few contests with Blob and his swarm of snakes warping in, doing damage then warping off before the payout. Or do i remember wrong , @Blobert ?

PS: But yeah, either way im pretty sure its a bad idea on the long run for various reasons.

you do not remember wrong, sweetcheeks :x

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