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Alan Artemisa

Balancing optimizing with being new-pilot friendly

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Posted (edited)

For a few weeks in a row optimal hours have been suspended. This means more pilots in non-optimal hulls and fits joining the WTM fleets, but it also means the fleet is less able to take contests in the heavily-contested EUTZ, resulting in more waiting, bouncing and losing contests. Recently a few people discussed the problem, different interests that need to be balanced and possible solutions that could improve the current situation. This post was written together with Thomas Neoo and Xoceac.

 

The problem

During EUTZ there are four groups running HQ sites. WTM, TDF, NGA and recently a Korean group has started running HQ sites. These groups generally play nice with each other, but TDF can and will contest other groups to raise their own ISK/hr, lowering the efficiency at which the other groups can run sites. Running the WTM incursion fleet on a first com, first serve basis during these highly contested hours (from DT through early EUTZ) results in a serious loss of income for the entire fleet.

 

The interests

There are two conflicting sets of interests. On one hand everybody likes more ISK. On the other hand WTM wants to be a community open to newer members without requiring a multi-billion ISK investment up front. For each suggested solution we will try to balance these two sets of interests.

 

Possible solutions

Limiting non-optimal hulls in fleet

Set a hard cap on the number of non-optimal hulls that are allowed in fleet until there are no more optimal hulls on the waitlist. This would make WTM fleets harder to contest, but the tradeoff would be making it harder to join WTM fleets for new pilots.

A less harsh version of this would be only accepting optimal and preferred starter ships. This would remove some of the more... interesting hulls from fleet.

 

Expansion and stricter enforcement of the upgrade policy

Currently the upgrade policy requires pilots to upgrade to an optimal hull after 30 hours in fleet and to T2 guns after another 90 hours or 4 months, whichever comes first. Using the low estimate of 100m/hr you're looking at 3b for 30 fleet hours. That is enough ISK to (currently) buy PLEX for one month + upgrade to one of the non-Leshak optimal hulls. The suggestion here is requiring damage mods to be upgraded after 20 hours in fleet after getting an optimal hull. Assuming four damage mods that would be approximately 400 million ISK of the 2 billion people should've made in that timeframe. If possible it'd be great to expand upon the waitlist tool showing pilots they might have to wait for a long time to get in fleet because they are lagging behind on the upgrading policy.

 

More guidance for new pilots

Make a clear and easy guide on how to upgrade your ship, starting from a starter ship and covering all improvements until the pilot is in an optimal hull and fit. Preferably with an explanation for each upgrade. This gives pilots a clear path to contributing more to the fleet. This can also be combined with other suggestions. Also, Xoceac already started implementing this it seems!

 

Newbro-focused assault fleets

Another idea floated around in the Discord conversation was running assault fleets focused on non-optimal pilots. Newer pilots could get some incursions practice running assault sites, making ISK without having to deal with the higher stress and contesting resulting from the high competition for HQ sites. Obviously these fleets could only be run during very active hours (like EUTZ during weekends), but it would be a solution that would be beneficial to all (except if there aren't enough FC's to run assaults that is). One of the FC's seems to have already stepped up to organize this :)

 

Bringing back optimal hours

This solution speaks for itself. Bring back the optimal hours during the most highly-contested time (11-16 approximately). Perhaps combined with having a minimum number of x newer pilots in fleet.

 

Waitlist notifications for non-optimal fits

Another way of informing people they can and should upgrade could be through the waitlist, showing notifications for pilots to remind them to upgrade their ships.

 

Summary

There are a bunch of ways to improve WTM fleets without hurting the goal of being new-player friendly. We were wondering what other people thought. Let us know :)

 

Edited by Malcolm Galora
at OPs request
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 3

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Just my humble opinion on this subject . I like the rules but only the 30h rule not the 90h rule, why I would like to explain.

The 30h are in my opinion there to see if you like Incursion or not, for that 30h should be enough. So if you don't like Incursion after 30h, you have made some ISK and move on, but if you want to fly further -> Optimal Hull

And here begins the first problem . No one cares that this rule is really respected, because in my opinion the FC has to do much too much alone / would like and has little time to constantly check people / help the rules are respected and the people are supported in upgrades, because many do not upgrade because they simply have no idea what everything is possible (faction modules / implants / skills).

So no matter what rules you want to create or maintain please assign people to check Fit/Skills/Implants , and since only a few people see the Fits these people should also take care of it because it really is so easy in example of a vindicator to push the DPS if you know how (As an example I have a Vindicator 2500 MeMe) which is not so bad as guidance for people who have little idea , but as mentioned above people have to be appointed to check/remind/guide these pilots how to get to e.g. 2500 DPS as a vindicator, which is not really hard. Maybe create a badge for that because people like to achieve such things ....

Next I would like to address Sandbaggers. I like to be in fleet a lot and every day you see people who are always last in the pocket, never at anchor point, never in optimal range of tower and so on, and the sad thing mostly none name call them and they doit all day long that trickers me and many other people 2.

To conclude, all mentioned I think is still very Newbro friendly as WTM wants to be, it just lacks people who check and guide other pilots more and I hope this will be taken to heart in the near future ;)

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We check skills indirectly through fits. T2 guns are one of the biggest dps bumps and also a way to check for Omega status (No T2 guns, Leshaks, or Logi for Alpha pilots)

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@Malcolm Galora people skills into T2 gun because they know the requirements because EvE says them , but than they stop because they dont know better . I have a friend who started Incursion and had T2 guns but his DPS was way < 1800 because he didnt know what Else to Skill / buy Faction Lows / put in 2x DPS implants and skillling some drone DPS skills that took no time . With low effort i pushed his DPS so easy over 2200 because i helped him and pusht him a little bit . Thats what newbros need .

A really good example was the last Vindi who DieD . He had more than 200h+ in fleet but didnt had Damage rigs(also never got aggro) , thats a shame ..... But only FC and some other member see the Fit and didnt say anything or pushed him to buy A/B-Types and upgrade to dmg rigs and or maybe skilling DMG related skills .

By the way , why not using this site https://eveskillboard.com/  

so that people who assigned to help Pilots what skills they maybe missing , but for that we need people who are assigned todo that and check it , because optimal hull with T2 guns are nothing without the right skills.

Btw : https://i.imgur.com/A8p5uc4.jpg   the little meme i make , that was my way to improve my DPS , but for Newbros that could be so much more effient if someone took their by the hand and guide them to 2500+ DPS

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Posted (edited)

I also think limiting slots in fleet would do a lot of good. 2 newbro hulls at a time + 6 T1 guns at time, max.

That guarantees a good fleet comp, while still allowing newbros in, it pushes them to upgrade as fast as they can, not just in 20 hours. it's also an other little incentive for pilots who start incursions but aren't new to eve, to go straight with an optimal hull.

The downside seems to be implementation, need either more waitlist tools, or a lot of work in fleet to track those 8 slots.

About sandbaggers, I find it marvelous that there is always 10% of the fleet without drones out.

An other idea, next to each standard fit should be given a DPS goal, so people get an idea how far from "good" DPS they are.

Edited by Yohan Hita

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@Hatefull

I can assure you that anyone with that many hours and not upgrading stuff gets talked to by at least a few people.  The problem is that many do not listen and/or do not upgrade.

 

There are several I can think of right now that choose not to upgrade to optimal tank in order to get a second web, etc. and get called out on it at least once a focus and say they don't want to.

 

There are even some that don't even do T2 guns with that many hours.

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So first off, thank you to the people who've replied so far, it's good to hear some other inputs :)

I'll be replying on the different topics that were mentioned, sorry for not properly quoting, but since I haven't figured out how to split quotes nicely I'll just either quote or summarize what was discussed and try to add something to the discussion myself.

 

Pilots lacking knowledge on how to upgrade

Quote

Problem: Newer pilots don't know they should upgrade and how to go about it.

Solution: More guidance for these newer pilots. (I liked Yohan's idea, listing a target DPS level for each fit)

 

Problem: Not enough people to guide newer pilots (or push older pilots) towards upgrading.

Solution: A role like Resident (just make the Residents do it!) which is meant for mentors that can guide pilots in upgrading. Or more automation. Depends on how much your IT department likes/dislikes you.

 

As for gaining direct access to people's skills, I think there'll be people who'd rather not have that. We're an open incursion community, not a nullsec alliance ;) It's a good idea to have a list of important skills next to each fit though I guess! :) I also really liked the Vindicator improvement guide, having something like that for every ship would be pretty amazing as long as pilots get it pushed into their face, like when x-ing up with a specific hull :D 

Imagine x-ing up on the waitlist and seeing a "you x-ed up with this fit, the target dps for this fit is x. The skills that get you there are Gunnery V, Large Blaster Specialization III, Surgical Strike V and Heavy Drone Operation V. The next upgrade to improve your ship would be getting faction damage modules, these cost x ISK while increasing your target DPS to y.". 

 

Sandbagging

Quote

Next I would like to address Sandbaggers. I like to be in fleet a lot and every day you see people who are always last in the pocket, never at anchor point, never in optimal range of tower and so on, and the sad thing mostly none name call them and they doit all day long that trickers me and many other people 2.

Quote

About sandbaggers, I find it marvelous that there is always 10% of the fleet without drones out.

People not actively participating in the fleet (or even worse; actively not participating) are a pain, I agree. But I think that is even harder to solve than getting people to upgrade their ships.

 

49 minutes ago, Necricia said:

I can assure you that anyone with that many hours and not upgrading stuff gets talked to by at least a few people.  The problem is that many do not listen and/or do not upgrade.

There are several I can think of right now that choose not to upgrade to optimal tank in order to get a second web, etc. and get called out on it at least once a focus and say they don't want to.

There are even some that don't even do T2 guns with that many hours.

I just put this under sandbagging because damn, those people should stop getting invites. I'd love to see a waitlist upgrade saying "you've flown for x hours with us, we're expecting you to at least have upgraded to fit, if you haven't you will probably get skipped over in the waitlist". Preferably with people automatically being queued in front of them if the FC says their fit hasn't been upgraded sufficiently. Make sure to put a large red notification on screen saying "HEY, YOU CAN FIX THIS BY UPGRADING THIS THING".

 

Limiting the max number of non-optimal hulls/fits.

2 hours ago, Yohan Hita said:

I also think limiting slots in fleet would do a lot of good. 2 newbro hulls at a time + 6 T1 guns at time, max.

That guarantees a good fleet comp, while still allowing newbros in, it pushes them to upgrade as fast as they can, not just in 20 hours. it's also an other little incentive for pilots who start incursions but aren't new to eve, to go straight with an optimal hull.

The downside seems to be implementation, need either more waitlist tools, or a lot of work in fleet to track those 8 slots.

The implementation is always the hardest part, but I'd love to see a waitlist tool where anyone with a Resident or higher badge in the fleet can just copy/paste the fleet chat to see who's still in, with names being linked to their ships so the FC knows what they can or can't invite.

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Well,  let's please not make blanket exclusions.  Filling late USA/presDT fleet can still be  problematic with T1 guns and hyperions.  I prefer some isk to no isk.  I prefer a fleet to no fleet.  Post DT is indeed a different beast and could use some of this pointed direction to upgrade. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Docz Gotcha said:

Well,  let's please not make blanket exclusions.  Filling late USA/presDT fleet can still be  problematic with T1 guns and hyperions.  I prefer some isk to no isk.  I prefer a fleet to no fleet.  Post DT is indeed a different beast and could use some of this pointed direction to upgrade. 

That sounds fair, so no banning the non-preferred starter hulls I guess :)

Edited by Alan Artemisa

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12 hours ago, Hannibal Mograinee said:

The 4th community is not Korean. They are Chinese. I feel offended. Please fix. Thanks. <3

Rumors were going around they were Korean and we found that out after making the post, excuse us. We can't edit forum post, only 5 minutes after posting. Maybe council can edit.

 

 

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