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Darmarni

Blobert's TPPH Basi Experiment

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This thread is intended to be a place to discuss Blobert's experiments with Basilisks in the first two rooms of TPPH sites. A few people were bringing these experiments up in Zane's agro thread, so I figured the experiments could use their own thread for some more detailed discussion (and to allow Zane's thread to maintain it's focus on agro). To be clear, the tactic discussed in here is experimental, and any basi pilots reading this thread should not make use of this tactic unless commanded to by their FC.

For those who don't know what the experiment entails, the simple explanation is that Basilisks do not establish a cap-chain in the first two rooms of TPPH sites. Instead, both cap transfers are used to serve cap to the Outuni target, broadcasts and to any battleships that are lagging behind as they burn towards their targets and the out-gate. The standard cap-chain is re-established when the fleet arrives in the third room. To my knowledge, this tactic is only useful if all basi pilots in fleet are Logi V.

My thoughts - I'm a fairly new basi pilot, but I have perfect cap skills and some cheap capacitor implants. I found the experiment easy to manage. I found I had enough capacitor to serve two cap targets, maintain hardeners and afterburner, and pulse a single rep. Having an extra capacitor transfer free provided extra flexibility with serving cap to pilots that were lagging behind the fleet due to late entrances to the room, and also to the vindis burning out to their targets. Cap broadcasts are relatively sparse in these first two rooms, so making use of the extra transfer requires the basilisk pilot to make some decisions on who would benefit most from some extra cap.

The extra flexibility is great, but it comes with a price. I would caution that this tactic may cause some confusion with brand-new basi pilots. "Always cap-chain" is a much easier rule to follow than "Cap-Chain everywhere except the first two rooms of TPPHs". Furthermore, newer basi pilots are less likely to choose targets that would benefit from extra cap. Given the importance of the cap chain in ensuring fleet survival, this drawback is significant when flying with less experienced (or less attentive) basi pilots. As such, I would only recommend this tactic when flying with an experienced logi wing. They don't need to be grizzled veterens, but they should know enough about the site to have an understanding of who will need cap and why.

Anyway, that's my opinion after trying out the experiment a few times. I think it has potential to speed up TPPH sites, but I am not convinced that it should be made the default TPPH strategy. I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

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I have previously refrained from saying anything but I think @Darmarni above post summarize everything I wanted to say. We can provide constructive feedback to the experiment but ultimately its up command core to decide whether it is good or not. 

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Yep, I'm just a line pilot sharing my opinions having participated in the experiment. Whether WTM wants to experiment further with this tactic is definitely a call for command.

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There's a sort of rhythm most  established logi pilots get into the habit of, chain/links up, orbit+prop mod, then just working through broadcasts. Doing stuff out of the ordinary like this kind of breaks the rhythm. It's not a bad idea, logi 5 pilots can get away with a lot of stuff like this, but I can't see this as being standard practice. Someday I still dream of chainless basis ^_^

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Was just reading through this level 5's should be able to handle the cap drain from 2 remote caps and ab on, but I'm guessing l4 would still need 1 incoming? (not at a pc atm to check) 

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Posted (edited)

I think you're right dark. All-5-but-Logi-4 Basi 1xT2 Minimal fit would cap out in 1:17min by itself. But solution is ez. "If your number i red, you always cap down. Experiment pertains only up caps which acts as combat cap in 1-2 tpph."

Also, in 1st room tpph each particular basi never need two combat caps on outuni target because for 1 outuni 1 cc is enough.

The issue with this tactic may be if when inexperienced basi continue to rep then cap out themselves. Solution is less ez. Basi "pro" mode is to be turned on (may be in MotD) only when FC trust CCC, and CCC confirms he trust his logi wing. Pilot awareness is the key. We could add more fancy tactics to pro mode later on, like for instance dropping chain on TPPH tower bash (though refitting 0/6 there is much more effective but with no refit, 2cc is still twice more then 1)

Upside is huge. FC could reduce CC number from 4+ for TPPH (which they prefer to run with nowadays). This increase scimi links number and TPPHs are sites where links help most because of lot of burning to targets.

Edited by Charr Coal

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There's a business-management thing, and since this one works there are thousands of examples. You've got a workplace, and workers, and you want more work out of them. So you try changing a thing, maybe you turn up the lights so people can see better. Hurray, production rises, the lights weren't bright enough! But after a few months everything goes back to where it was. Well, maybe the lights are too bright and they're hurting everybody's eyes; you turn them down a bit. Production rises, hurrah! And.. this works on *anything*. Practically any change you make to the way people work will increase productivity, for a few months.

This is one more example. It's not better in an abstract sense... in the nowadays WTM fleet with four CC's, you completely don't need it... but it's survivable, and if it wakes up the logi some, cool.

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You know that the 3rd room is more cap hungry than 1st or 2nd tho', right?
I mean its a cool idea i love it.
And it should work easy enough...
If everyone perfectly can follow what FC says (all the time)...
And if everyone has basically perfect basi skills...
And if all the non-basis are actually repping with a rep or 2 instead of being afk cuz of "TPPH"...

 

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Posted (edited)

I can see the intent of this experiment, but I think it just doesn't work. We tried it during one TPPH, and I checked numbers afterward, they are even worst than what I expected, due to the T2 cap transfer and active EM resist changes.

Basilisk optimal fit with all skills to V (no implants) is not even stable with just 1 cap transfer (-0.757 /s). With two cap transfers, it reaches the 25% cap limit in 95 seconds.

So in the best case, with pilots fully trained, at the cost of our 4 reps, we can double our CC for just 95 seconds, and then only pulse 1 (making us less effective than if we just ran a normal chain).

And I'm not even talking about the cap management headache it becomes, and how it makes us completely unable to react with reps if anything goes wrong.

To help with overall capacitor demand, Capspray are great, but from a fleet standpoint, transitioning basis to the 3 cycles method (way more efficient), and teaching/training pilots to manage their cap, pulse their MWD, and not just automatically broadcast when they hear cap alarm, would lead to dramatic improvement.

Edited by Yohan Hita

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3 cycles is bad. waste a LOT of module uptime during deactivating/reactivating.

its bad when basi only cap broadcasts (and you know thats how 3rd room is so broadcasts abundant)

should add in rookie guide/logibro speech "never have your CC idle longer then your locktime"

sigh. maybe should focus of them capping at all, and for pro-tactics for general public its to early. though we do have apt logi squads sometimes.

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The effective cap loss with current method is 25 to 50% (capping ships already full, capping ships who already broadcasted in position, capping ships who have a cap buddy, capping ships who left their MWD on ...)

That deactivation/reactivation time, worst case, is at 10% loss (~3 seconds every 24 seconds), pretty small number in comparison.

3 cycles also gives pilots a lot more free time to give cap to hungry ships, and is way easier to explain and execute than current method, making it more newbro friendly.

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