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Alright, I don't mean to pick on anybody.  I've been hearing multiple commanders harp on logi for landing in site first and overrepping since I first sat in a logi boat.  So, this is common wisdom within the community.  However, I believe the truth of the matter to be more nuanced.  Moreover, I am offering a preemptive rebuttal to anyone who might speak out against Blobert's experiments on the grounds that it increases the chances of Scimi's getting agro.  But more on that later.

TLDR

  • I concur that logi agro in the TCRC is quite dangerous.  Naturally, I think we should continue to try to minimize the chances of logi drawing agro there.
  • The danger of logi agro in the NRF is dependent on fit.
  • The danger of logi agro in the TPPH is relatively small.
  • Blobert has been experimenting with Basi's just giving cap in the 1st and 2nd rooms of the TPPH.  This means scimis have to rep more, and are more likely to draw agro.  I believe that this idea should not be discounted on the grounds that it is dangerous for Scimis.  It is not.

For those that don't know, I used to intentionally try to draw agro in TPPH's and NRF's in order to pull the waves:

  • TPPH - Room 1 - Initial Agro
  • TPPH - Room 2 Initial Agro
  • TPPH - Room 3 Initial Agro
  • TPPH - Room 3 - 1st Wave - Threat Generated Agro (try to pull the wave towards the DPS anchor spot)
  • NRF - 1st Wave - Initial Agro
  • NRF - 1st Wave - Threat Generated Agro (try to pull the wave towards the DPS anchor spot)

I used to do this ALL the time flying rather standard fit T2 Basis and Scimis.  Never once had a problem in either ship (and I've ran a site or two as a logi in my time with WTM).  I stopped doing it, however, when I got Saviors and switched to a T2 Invuln + DCU fit (which is one of the squishiest accepted logi fits).  I kissed armor the very first time I got agro in an NRF, and I've seen some significant rubber banding on subsequent occaisions.  So, obviously, getting agro in an NRF IN THIS PARTICULAR FIT is less than ideal.  Many other fits, especially the basi fits, fair far better.

Now, having flown this squishy scimi for quite some time, I've managed to accidentally pull agro in the TPPH's on several occasions.  Based upon what I've observed, I do not believe that aggro from Room 1, Room 2, Room 3-Wave 1 pose any significant threat to logi.  However, there are some caveats to this statement.  First, the Pith C Scimi is slightly squishier than my fit.  And, perhaps more importantly, I always try to pull the waves.  This means that (1) I get moving ASAP and never get caught sitting still, (2) it increases the distance between me and the rats, which likely mitigates some damage, and (3) it delays when I get webbed, which gives the logi more time to establish reps before I do.  So, it's not like I've sat still in the squishiest logi ship with minimum logi to see what happens.  However, based on what I have seen, I don't think it's a problem.  Obviously, I'll always do what the FC tells me to do, but unless told otherwise, I'm going to start trying to pull waves in TPPH's again.  And, if I ever upgrade to a stronger tank, I'll start trying to pull waves in NRF's.

Finally, Blobert has been experimenting with Basi's not chaining up, and just serving cap in the first 2 rooms of a TPPH.  I believe this idea to have merit, and I certainly don't think that it should be discounted on the grounds that it increases the danger to scimis (they have to rep more to compensate).  I haven't heard any one express this sentiment, but I have heard multiple commanders harp on logi about overrepping in the first 2 rooms of a TPPH because "it's dangerous".  I really don't think it is.

 

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Logi aggro is something that can be simply solved. Logi should do their best to NOT drawn aggro (sometimes it is un avoidable, looking at you 3rd room tpph orbits). To not draw initial aggro all logi SHOULD WAIT until they see at roast half the BS take the gate (except in a tcrc, they should take it as soon as FC calls fleet in. In here they should get better at managing their reps and get their orbits up asap). For the rest it is as simple as more effecting rep management. Logi SHOULD NEVER PULL AGGRO ON PURPOSE!!! ESPECIALLY BASI AS THAT CAN SCREW THE CAP CHAIN. 

 

These are my thoughts. 

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I think one of the issues FCs have with TPPH rooms 1 and 2 is that because Logi are the slowest ships, anyone that has burned or should be burning to the gate is more likely to switch to long range ammo and slow down site time.

Another issue I see is that while you're trying to promote it as a mark of a good Logi, drawing agro is more likely to be a mark of a bad Logi who just slams all reps into a target and then alt tabs to watch cat videos.

The last issue is basically what Nicholas said, Logi should ALWAYS be trying to not draw agro. The more you practice in situations where it isn't a threat like the scenarios you mentioned, the less likely you are to draw it in areas where it is a big threat like NRF fourth wave switch or TCRC first switch.

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Posted (edited)

WTM does not require logi pilots to have passed basic logi school. As a consequence, we have a lot of newbro logi pilots who are aware of practically none of the agro mechanics. The logi rookie guide is a good start, but it does not really touch on agro mechanics or the need for logi to let the fleet take gates before they do. In my case, these were not made clear to me until I made a mistake and drew agro, and even then it took making the same mistake multiple times before anyone noticed and explained what was going on and why sansha were so interested in seeing my scimitar blown to pieces. 

This could likely be solved by some additions to basi/scimi chat motds, or an extra paragraph of newbrospeech when pilots x-up as logi for the first time. It wouldn't have to be much either, just something along the lines of "Do your best to avoid Sansha agro by letting battleships take gates before you do, and minimizing active reps on target whilst keeping their shields stable."

Optionally logi school could be made a compulsory requirement for prospective logi pilots, but I shudder to think how this would affect FCs in need of more logi.

Edited by Darmarni

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Okay, no where did I say that we should tell all logi pilots to do it.  New logi pilots in particular have enough on their plate.

I never had a problem getting out of cap range as a basi (basi's move slower).

I have neared the edge of rep range as a scimi in the 3rd room TPPH when pulling to the DPS anchor spot in late night fleets when the AAA was sitting still to help the snipers with the Mara before moving.  That wasn't a problem with the 2x T2 invuln fit, but might be with squishier fits.  Guess I'll find out.

I've never had a problem getting to the gate before it spawned, but I also have maxed out navigation skills.  Pilots with lower skills might have a problem, don't know.

I don't even know how to respond to the practice comment by Bear.  I guess it might be good practice for newbro logi, but I give reps based upon need, and try to cycle down in anticipation of the switch.  I'm not like I'm over repping in 4th wave NRF's because I try to land on grid first in TPPH's or give too much reps in the 1st wave 3rd room.  I guess it makes sense when talking about lowest common denominator logi, but I engage brain (on occasion).

And, in case anyone is wondering, it is possible to do it all.  It is possible to get the cap chain up, give links, sling cap, manage reps, keep an eye on the fleet, and pull the wave.  In fact, I've even done it while dual boxing.

Also, I've never died or seen anyone die trying to pull a wave.  Ever.  And I've done it quite a few times.  I'm not saying it can't happen, especially in a squishy Scimi in an NRF, but it is certainly rare.  And I suspect that it's a non-issue in TPPH's.

Finally, Bear, it's not about promoting what is good or bad logi, it's about increasing isk efficiency without significantly compromising safety.

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Honestly when I see logi taking aggro I almost always comment on it. Logi are definitely squishier than battleships for multiple reasons, this is why I dont want them to EVER take aggro because of safety issues if and when they die. Granted there's not much safety loss if 1 out of 9 logi die in a TPPH but that's besides the point. I like to cultivate proper logi mentality to not pull aggro ever and as @Darmarni stated, not all logi pilots have attended logi school, nor will a lot of new logi pilots as well. The thing is that there's going to be a lot of newbro logi that we are probably gonna be teaching in fleet how to logi effectively and safely and other logi doing the opposite is counter-intuitive especially if it's a commander (Not calling anyone out). Granted the "logi pulling waves" is helpful, but all these can be accomplished with a battleship anyways OR if you're the FC with your booster (For initial aggro only obviously).

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Hi, I just went through the last six months worth of logi losses. Three-quarters of them happen in the first minute of a TCRC. Half of the remainder are people who aren't aligned correctly EXITING a TCRC. Most of what's left are mass DC's, or Scimi's getting blown up in a four-Deltole wave in an OCF, or people jumping into the wrong site.

The ONLY normal hazard in your lives is that first TCRC minute. And of course we just changed the way we do that minute, so maybe it's fixed! We'll know in October or so. In the meantime, I have a fun fact that may help: the dual A-type Claymore needs only thirteen reps to stand up to the entire room. This means, DO NOT put more than two reps on it unless it hits armor. Half of you should be using ONE rep. And the thing has only 10.9K of raw shield; sixteen shield reps brings that Claymore from 0 to full shields.  If everybody has two reps on it, it goes from 0-100% shield, every 6.62 seconds. Don't stint on cap if it needs it, but do not over-rep the Claymore.

Outside of that, don't be a complete fool and you'll be fine. Broadcast when you get aggro, run your active hardeners, keep your orbit and prop mod up, and it's all good. Do the job, and when you blow up in that TCRC minute you'll get logi SRP and probably a loaner hull and be back on grid by end of site.

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I know that implants cause aggro even with 2 reps running. But mostly commanders use them. As commanders switch into loki this should stop.

10 hours ago, Nicholas Deneth said:

SHOULD WAIT until they see at roast half the BS take the gate


@Nicholas Deneth this is gonna get people killed. Logi should enter as soon as possible but learn how to use the 10 sec invulnerably timer.

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May it soon happen that no-chaining-up be permitted officially in 1-2 tpph? If so wonderful news, I honestly did that mmm several times (almost every time I could and fleet was cap hungry) when I had basi chain buddy I knew wouldn't mind and be spooked. It works. If pilot is in control of situation, everything works.

I didn't pull on purpose with logi because it would have given fleet members wrong impression of something bad and dangerous happening, or worse, it would give newbro logi an impression it is normal for logi to pull aggro (these different things). By itself, if pilot is in control pulling certain waves to proper position, its like Zane said, it helps and danger is ~nonexistent, and getting to gate in time - tell my 1k+ m/s basi its slowest ship in fleet. But I still rather not do it in logi, because misunderstandings outweight benefit in my book.

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5 hours ago, FRO5T said:

Logi should enter as soon as possible but learn how to use the 10 sec invulnerably timer.

that in my opinion is a terrible idea, using that 10 second invuln requires Logi sitting still, this prevents the basi from getting their chain up as they cannot lock each other, this is 10 seconds where they should be getting moving, orbits and prop mods, begin locking their link targets and cap chain, applying reps. Having the Logi practice good Logi tactics by being as efficient as possible with getting everything they have to do at the begining of each room is paramount, regardless of it is a TPPH or TCRC, it saves lives. having them learn to take advantage of the 10 second invuln is just teaching them it is ok to take a gate first and just sit there. Where as BS taking the gate first they have enough buffer to last the time it takes for the first logi to properly land and start applying reps. And everything I have said doesn't even take into consideration logi pilots with Ascendancies, who btw even if they wait until at least half the BS take the gate can and often do still land at the same time as the BS. 

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Logi taking a switch is mostly situational, first waves when the battleships are not in postion to do damage a logi will likely take the switch. Most of the time we bug the logi is when they take initial aggro via taking the gate too soon, or by running too many reps. Promoting good habits should be advisable, reminding logi to cycle down reps at the end of waves, waiting a few seconds before taking a gate, using only as many reps as you need to keep someone stable, being ready for the switches. Reinforce the ideas, keep them engaged, all that jazz.

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On 8/7/2020 at 4:11 PM, Darmarni said:

The logi rookie guide is a good start, but it does not really touch on agro mechanics or the need for logi to let the fleet take gates before they do.

I just added a short note to the logi rookie guide covering that point. When FC calls a TCRC full fleet in, that's the exception, as the anchor is already taking the aggro.

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@Imelda Virpio looking at losses and try to prevent them are nice, but it does not show how many actual scimi were really close cuz they were stoopid enough to get some serious agro for example in nrf 1st wave. It did happen multiple times and over the last 3 years there were at least 2 scimi losses in that wave. Also ask Vargon about  logi loss in TPPH freaking room number 1. I also can remember a logi getting into armor in room 2 as well just a few weeks ago.

Logi getting damage agro is a bad mistake, but logi getting initial agro is even worse. A good logi pilot should not draw any kind of agro ever, except if its warranted to slap all reps on a ship in trouble.

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3 hours ago, niki lasvegas said:

looking at losses and try to prevent them are nice, but it does not show how many actual scimi were really close

this is a very good point and I wish we had a better way to track this. Unfortunately unless we ask commanders or pilots to report every close call, losses may be what we're stuck with. In theory, if some percentage of close calls result in death, any changes in trends should track accordingly

or on the other hand, if they don't result in death at all maybe are not so big of a problem, but I doubt this.

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