Scimitar Upgrades

[Ryder Wayland 0]

So I believe we can have better Scimitar fits for logistics 5 optimal hull. I think we should look at our current fit versus 2 others. [Scimitar, Scimitar V Optimal]
Spoiler   Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II   Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Shield Hardener Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner   Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II   Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II     Acolyte II x5 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x1 Nanite Repair Paste x234 Optimal Range Script x3 Tracking Speed Script x3 Medium Hull Maintenance Bot II x1
What i believe we can do are 2 different things depending on what we want to go after. The first would be scimi safety, the second would be for fleet safety. The Scimi safety is based on a community fit from LoL (League of Lunatics) Optimal Scimi Safety [Scimitar, Logi V] Spoiler   True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay Damage Control II Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Shield Hardener Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Acolyte II x5 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x1 Nanite Repair Paste x234 Optimal Range Script x3 Tracking Speed Script x3 Medium Hull Maintenance Bot II x1       This fit makes a logi V pilot cap stable and gives them a damage control for increased resistances across the ship. You can even Faction the dmg controller if you want higher resists.   The second fit is more about prioritizing fleet safety with 12 lockable targets. You place a Sig amp in the low staying cap stable with 3 reppers and your able to have 12 locks. [Scimitar, Fleet Safety] Spoiler   True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay Signal Amplifier II Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Shield Hardener Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Large Remote Shield Booster II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II   Medium Hull Maintenance Bot II x1 Medium Armor Maintenance Bot II x1 Acolyte II x5 Tracking Speed Script x3 Nanite Repair Paste x175 Optimal Range Script x3   Post what you think below! Thanks, Ryder Wayland

[Eliz Marbly 93]

First and foremost; thank you for posting this. WTM has always welcome new people, new ideas on how to improve the fleet further.

After going through these fits, it does meets the tank requirement for scimi and as such they could get accepted into fleet. 

As a dedicated logi pilot like myself with all the skills and implants I can fly the above mentioned fits with 4 reps stable and I will definitely recommend that to experienced pilots.

However for a new pilot who just upgraded from Logi IV to V; he/she are lacking skills and with the above linked fits and are pretty much not 3 rep stable unless they buy implants to mitigate their lack of skills.

Some pointers I will add regarding those fits u linked above;

For the dcu scimi; the addition of dcu buffs ur ehp from 13k to 17k ehp. In TCRCs, scimi are flying coffins and while under sustained dps pressure; the dcu could save a scimi but in an event of a hard switch (alpha) the scimi tank is paper thin and will get popped easily. The addition of faction dcu will buff the ehp to 17.5k ehp but then your spending too much isk for so little gains. Personally I like this fit better in light of the resist nerf and maybe commanders might want to chip in their thoughts with regards to this fit?

For the sig amp scimi however to get 12 locks you will need to get advanced target management V to use them. Otherwise you would have wasted that slot in terms of locking more targets

[Ryder Wayland 0]

I actually get just over 21k ehp with boosts. I did want to point that out!

 

 

[Kimina Tanai 74]

32 minutes ago, Eliz Marbly said:

For the dcu scimi; the addition of dcu buffs ur ehp from 13k to 17k ehp. In TCRCs, scimi are flying coffins and while under sustained dps pressure; the dcu could save a scimi but in an event of a hard switch (alpha) the scimi tank is paper thin and will get popped easily. The addition of faction dcu will buff the ehp to 17.5k ehp but then your spending too much isk for so little gains. Personally I like this fit better in light of the resist nerf and maybe commanders might want to chip in their thoughts with regards to this fit?

You're spot on here. The challenge with a scimitar is not its resists, it's its buffer. Adding buffer to armor and hull (which is most of what a DCU does) doesn't really get you very far. If a scimitar dies, it's going to be due to the alpha, and the proper way to fix that is to use an LSE. We've been evaluating LSE fits for a while, but their biggest challenge is rooted in finding a way to get them to work for newer pilots, and having a fleet of mixed scimitars (LSE and non-LSE) is not exceptionally safe due to the inconsistencies in healing requirements.

In reality, the DCU might actually be harming the fleet. I get that you're adding EHP and protecting the scimitar, but you have to look at what you're giving up, too. In this case, you're giving up some capacitor which, for most pilots, will affect the amount of time you can run 4 reps. That means you're trading fleet safety for your own safety. For such a tiny gain in this case, I'm not really sure that's justified.

That being said, the DCU fit would certainly be accepted if you choose to use it. But the nuance is such that only advanced pilots would really understand it, and as such it's not a good fit to advertise.

[Malcolm Galora 373]

It basically comes down to cost versus performance. Bling AB are nice but they don't add enough to make them wanted on the majority of fits. I would only really recommend adding a dcu for influence where your resists matter a little more. A scimitar's tank mostly comes in its tiny sig and its speed, with great base resists in EM and Thermal to get away with much less. I personally believe a scimitar's greatest tank is simply not getting aggro in the first place, something a basilisk doesn't always have the luxury of. This takes a little experience and situational awareness to pull off though.

[Kimina Tanai 74]

Just now, Ryder Wayland said:

I actually get just over 21k ehp with boosts. I did want to point that out!

 

 

It's extremely important to point out that this simulation is assuming omni resists, and much of your gain is coming from explosive and kinetic. In reality, in incursions, almost none of the damage dealt to a Scimitar is explosive or kinetic. For the hell of it, I did run the numbers. 

For the DCU fit in a TCRC, you're taking 226 DPS normally, or 1932 DPS while webbed and painted. For the non-DCU fit (I simply replaced the DCU with another True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay) you're taking 258 DPS normally, or 2210 DPS while webbed and painted. That 278 "extra" DPS is one extra logi pilot needing to rep you.

As I mentioned earlier, scimitars really aren't dying due to the inability to keep up with the damage, they're dying due to the lack of buffer. That extra 278 DPS isn't going to be the part that kills you.

All that being said, as also mentioned earlier, we really do appreciate others looking into these things, as there's no way we can know and test every possible fit, and it's always possible that we miss something. However, in this particular case, it looks like this is trying to solve the wrong problem. Definitely would be interested in seeing how we could apply your advice towards supporting an LSE fit (DCU+LSE is actually a fit I like a lot) while supporting newer pilots at the same time.

For your own information, the calculator that I use is fairly complex, but for a "rough guess" when I am testing logi fits in pyfa, I use a damage distribution of 45% EM, 35% Thermal, 10% Kinetic, 10% Explosive. This doesn't paint quite the whole picture, and that's why I usually use my full calculator when evaluating fits in detail, but for a basic check, those numbers should give you a decent EHP estimate.

[niki lasvegas 537]

So my 2 cents is that you want to use a cheap and efficient scimi fit.

Here is the fit i'd recommend for linepilots, that is acceptable but has very tight fitting requirements.

Really cheap and has more resists everywhere than opti fit.

Spoiler

 

[Scimitar, Scimitar]
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Damage Control II

Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Adaptive Invulnerability Shield Hardener II
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner

Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Acolyte II x5
Medium Hull Maintenance Bot II x2

Tracking Speed Script x3
Optimal Range Script x3

 

Also i agree with Malcolm. Scimitars pretty much never should take serious agro when piloting correctly. Thats their most important "tank".

[Malcolm Galora 373]

Just now, niki lasvegas said:

So my 2 cents is that you want to use a cheap and efficient scimi fit.

Here is the fit i'd recommend for linepilots, that is acceptable but has very tight fitting requirements.

Really cheap and has more resists everywhere than opti fit.

  Hide contents

 

[Scimitar, Scimitar]
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Dark Blood Capacitor Power Relay
Damage Control II

Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Adaptive Invulnerability Shield Hardener II
Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner

Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Acolyte II x5
Medium Hull Maintenance Bot II x2

Tracking Speed Script x3
Optimal Range Script x3

 

Also i agree with Malcolm. Scimitars pretty much never should take serious agro when piloting correctly. Thats their most important "tank".

This fit was actually removed from acceptable with the Surgical Strike patch.

[niki lasvegas 537]

1 minute ago, Malcolm Galora said:

This fit was actually removed from acceptable with the Surgical Strike patch.

Hmm okay, whats the reason for the removal ?

[Malcolm Galora 373]

1 minute ago, niki lasvegas said:

Hmm okay, whats the reason for the removal ?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[niki lasvegas 537]

Hmm interesting. DCU just simply got better with the patch so i dont really see why. I guess i'll ask dr zumi about it if it is indeed the case.

The fit i listed is way cheaper and slightly better than current optimal :smirk_cat:
Its only problem that its really tight and needs good fitting skills.

Edited May 24, 2020 by niki lasvegas

[niki lasvegas 537]

I also agree with Kimi. Scimitars mostly dying because of lack of shield buffer.

Problem is that its actually really hard to fix it without removing 1 link from the fit.

Also let me reiterate again if a scimitar dies it is most of the times cuz of bad piloting (taking gate too soon, or overrepping and taking damage aggro).

[Tallon Darkwyrm 34]

Instead of the Sig Amp II, make it a Sentient Sig Amp. It costs like 12 mill and it is better than T2.

[Imelda Virpio 179]

11 hours ago, Tallon Darkwyrm said:

Instead of the Sig Amp II, make it a Sentient Sig Amp. It costs like 12 mill and it is better than T2.

Faction sigamp is not an improvement over T2 on the Scimitar. The lock increase is the same, and the change in scan res does not push any lock times past a one-second boundary for a properly skilled pilot.

[Malcolm Galora 373]

1 hour ago, Imelda Virpio said:

Faction sigamp is not an improvement over T2 on the Scimitar. The lock increase is the same, and the change in scan res does not push any lock times past a one-second boundary for a properly skilled pilot.

Sometimes you just have isk to burn.

[James Baboli 10]

5 hours ago, Imelda Virpio said:

Faction sigamp is not an improvement over T2 on the Scimitar. The lock increase is the same, and the change in scan res does not push any lock times past a one-second boundary for a properly skilled pilot.

It does on single Thukker LSE lokis. I have yet to find any others other than increasing greatly the portion of pilots who are single second to lock with MWD on.

[Rogueweapon 26]

Fly casual to avoid aggro  , the wrath of the empire   , get to the shield generator !!!

[Yohan Hita 6]

Basi pilot here, I've never flown a Scimy in incursion but I often repair them.

About the Sigamp, I have one on my Basi, and while the 12 locks are good comfort, I rarely need them, and when I do it has more to do with tons of cap broadcasts than anything else. I rarely have more than 6 shield broadcasts locked at once, so a Scimy with 8 locks for shield broadcasts (10-2 for links IIRC, feel free to correct me on that) is more than enough, adding 2, while pleasant for the pilot I admit, won't affect fleet safety at all.

About the DCU, I highly encourage that to become the default fit as soon as possible. Common misconception is Scimies explode due to Alpha, not true in my experience. When alpha happens generally the ship is not completely webbed yet, allowing it to evade a good part of the damage, giving plenty of time for other logis to get lock and reps up.

I have seen 2 Scimies die in TCRCs in 2 weeks, and that was only due to sustained agro and webs. Every volley was taking out 100% shield, and 20 to 40% of armor. Despite other Scimies and Leshaks best efforts with armor reps (which gave at least 3 extra volleys of lifetime, not negligible), both Scimies dipped lower and lower into armor and hull to end up exploding. (Before you ask, their shield was back up to 100% after every volley, there was nothing more that could be done with shield reps, and that was pretty frustrating ...)

A DCU would have prevented that by adding some more resists on every layers, meaning more buffer, and most importantly more effective armor and hull reps, allowing these Scimies to survive longer, until agro switches eventually.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Yohan Hita

[Malcolm Galora 373]

Sig amp is a quality of life improvement for logi pilots more than anything. I like dcu on influence fits and my snowflake ones too. Most of a scimitar's tank is in its tiny sig and higher base speed. It's biggest drawback is it's lack of buffer. Avoiding aggro is its best defense, but a dcu can be a nice touch if unavoidable (like high influence). There are some niche fits that combine dcu and pds for a more tanky setup, but the drawback being cap stability. Scimitar's in general are some of my favourite ships to fly 

[Imelda Virpio 179]

9 hours ago, Yohan Hita said:

I have seen 2 Scimies die in TCRCs in 2 weeks, and that was only due to sustained agro and webs. Every volley was taking out 100% shield, and 20 to 40% of armor. Despite other Scimies and Leshaks best efforts with armor reps (which gave at least 3 extra volleys of lifetime, not negligible), both Scimies dipped lower and lower into armor and hull to end up exploding. (Before you ask, their shield was back up to 100% after every volley, there was nothing more that could be done with shield reps, and that was pretty frustrating ...)

A DCU would have prevented that by adding some more resists on every layers, meaning more buffer, and most importantly more effective armor and hull reps, allowing these Scimies to survive longer, until agro switches eventually.

The reason this happens is that Deltoles have TARGET PAINTERS. So, if a Scimitar gets the initial switch in TCRC, it gets webbed by Schmaeels and Renyns and painted by five Deltoles, and then either the Ostingeles or Yulais pile on and *apply* damage. Its speed and sig tank are both *totally* cancelled, and even with a thousand reps on it goes 100% shield, 95% hull, 100% shield, gone. It happens the same way to Scimi's with two T2 invulns and DCU -- maybe the second step has 5% armor-- so the DCU doesn't fix it. You get a similar thing in the Overwhelmed Civilian Facility assault site, because it sometimes coughs up a wave with four Deltoles.

Command corps has been having this discussion for at least five years. The suggestion that keeps coming up is to add a large shield extender for buffer, but Scimi has major powergrid problems already and the LSE also causes the sig radius to go up so it messes with the sig tank! Really, there's no perfect solution, and ... we keep logs. It turns out Scimitars don't actually die that much. They're random-number tanked, but the dice rolls are in our favor.

[niki lasvegas 537]

I've talked about this with Conarion and Izumi and while it is not official yet most likely DCU+Single T2 Multi Hardener scimi fit will be reinstalled at some point.

Soon™

Edited June 5, 2020 by niki lasvegas

[Yohan Hita 6]

Now that I also fly a Scimy I've been tinkering with fits, and I came up with that:

Spoiler

[Scimitar, DCU + SigAmp]

Sentient Signal Amplifier
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
Caldari Navy Power Diagnostic System
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Corelum B-Type 10MN Afterburner
Gistum B-Type Multispectrum Shield Hardener
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer
Shadow Serpentis Remote Tracking Computer

Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Warrior II x5

Nanite Repair Paste x200
Optimal Range Script x3
Tracking Speed Script x3

3 reps stable, brings shield EHP to the same level as a DCU would (+14%, but no bonus to armor/hull obviously), and fits the SigAmp. Can even hold 4 reps for 2m12 without implants (3m56 with genos).

I still think SigAmp isn't needed but if it works, why not! The 25km (from 75 to 100km) extra lock range is the most interesting benefit IMO.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Yohan Hita

[Izumi Uchiya MD 214]

Hi Yohan, yes dual PDS fit Scimi has been a popular option in the past.  While we don't advertise it due to some skill and fitting limitations,  you can certainly fly that if you like.