Yohan Hita

Serving cap broadcast, a better method?

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55 minutes ago, Malcolm Galora said:

It's something you learn from being an Logi Master, it doesn't conflict with our standard protocols. If you can work within the norm and improve efficiency then by all means, just please don't confuse people with new ways of doing things, especially for our newbro Basi pilots.

I'll absolutely not step on anyone's toes and try to to impose any new or confusing methods outside of doctrine.  But I think institutional momentum shouldn't be the strongest argument against potentially positive changes.  I'm not great at explaining things, but it honestly is not difficult to manage cap broadcasts the way everyone did in TVP years ago.

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1 hour ago, Malcolm Galora said:

It's a way to prevent you from overcapping someone who doesn't broadcast in position, keeping at 100% isn't the endgoal. When you are proactively capping you can prevent cap broadcasts at all by looking to see who is full or not and cycling cap on every cap hungry target.

In a newbro community like WTM we need a setup that ensures everyone is doing what they should and communicating with each other effectively. This isn't TVP where everyone is Pro level with good skills, implants, and top tier fits where your cap broadcasts are sensible, and you don't have people capping themselves out by leaving their MWD on. This is our tried and true method, and I would suggest you learn it well If you want to do LC regularly. As every LC is expected to run it the same way.

Again it seems that you do not understand what I am trying to point out. Cap transfers are back loaded, so when you see your cap transfer gave less than 351, the module is already on its next cycle, effectively losing 2 cycles of cap to know the ship is full. It will prevent you from overcapping even further, yes, but it still wastes a lot and is very time consuming for the Basi pilot.

The picture of TVP is awfully wrong. Yes they were more demanding than WTM (and that might not even be true anymore with the recent anti-sandbag campaign) but there was always a couple of newbros (whom they taught and trained, I was one of them at some point), nowhere near everyone had top skills and fits, and I can assure you cap broadcasts were not that sensible ...

"This is our tried and true method" so much that it fails on every single post-downtime fleet. I practiced it so well I can say that when there are 8 cap broadcasts in rather quick successions in a TPPH, half of them just get ignored by most Basi pilots, simply because they tend to look at just the last one or two cap broadcasts. (I did count, multiple times)

"In a newbro community like WTM" Why do you consider everyone without a badge as a noob who knows nothing about incursions? Newbros learn and become proficient, and it doesn't take that long.

 

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20 minutes ago, Yohan Hita said:

"This is our tried and true method" so much that it fails on every single post-downtime fleet. I practiced it so well I can say that when there are 8 cap broadcasts in rather quick successions in a TPPH, half of them just get ignored by most Basi pilots, simply because they tend to look at just the last one or two cap broadcasts. (I did count, multiple times)

That's not a failure of the method, that's a failure of Logi attentiveness. You would most likely run into the same problems either way.

28 minutes ago, Yohan Hita said:

"In a newbro community like WTM" Why do you consider everyone without a badge as a noob who knows nothing about incursions? Newbros learn and become proficient, and it doesn't take that long.

I would be really stupid to consider every line pilot as knowing nothing. I like that people like to think about these things, regardless of who they are. It shows they care. But the only way to get change to go through is to become a commander. WTM is a very bureaucratic safety orientated community. Whenever we want to do something new, we sit and discuss then we discuss some more. Established procedure rarely changes unless there is some good reason for it. We are most comfortable with what we are most familiar with. I like to hear the discussion though, its always nice to hear different perspectives.

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It's really strange to me that this thread has gone on for what, a week? and nobody's mentioned that getting battleships to 75% cap isn't actually a reasonable goal, it's the *limit*. Fill somebody up to 75% and their cap regen decreases so much that they can drain just from running their invulns. (The crap Hyperion fit+pilot I keep in pyfa is stable at 62% with just their tank on.) The fleet does not need us over-capping people like this.

What the fleet does need is to keep all the battleships energized enough to fight. About 40% is good; it's enough to pulse your prop mod and fire a wad of antimatter without triggering an alarm. This is why three-cycles-and-move-on works; even if the guy who broadcast is a fool and leaves ALL the lights on, your three cycles get him up to about that 40%; he's functioning, and his own cap regen is doing at least some of its job. Anything beyond that point is extra; if you spend another ten seconds dumping cap in, it'll only delay the next broadcast from that ship by five, or thereabouts.

Any plan that starts with "we can get people to 75% by..." is a bad plan.

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1 hour ago, Malcolm Galora said:

That's not a failure of the method, that's a failure of Logi attentiveness. You would most likely run into the same problems either way.

Logis can't spend 10/20 seconds scrolling down broadcasts and cross check with Basichat just to make sure all cap requests have been served and with enough cap, the more cap broadcasts, the more time consuming it gets, meaning it doesn't scale, leading to these issues, attentiveness is not the problem. (and not all pilots have a 30 tall broadcast history window)

3 cycles method: you lock and cap all the broadcasts, no questions, no check, it's fast, mechanical, doesn't forget anyone, doesn't get slower to process when there are many requests.

The vast majority of the time, cap broadcasts are 10/20 seconds appart, the concerns about the time to reach an 8th broadcast are overblown. Worst case, we could ask LC to work cap requests backward to shorten the wait time when walls happen.

It uses more locks? Yes, but in TPPH and NRF, very few locks are needed for shield broadcasts anyway, TCRC? There are not many cap requests, they don't pile up, so not a problem here either.

1 hour ago, Imelda Virpio said:

It's really strange to me that this thread has gone on for what, a week? and nobody's mentioned that getting battleships to 75% cap isn't actually a reasonable goal, it's the *limit*. Fill somebody up to 75% and their cap regen decreases so much that they can drain just from running their invulns. (The crap Hyperion fit+pilot I keep in pyfa is stable at 62% with just their tank on.) The fleet does not need us over-capping people like this.

What the fleet does need is to keep all the battleships energized enough to fight. About 40% is good; it's enough to pulse your prop mod and fire a wad of antimatter without triggering an alarm. This is why three-cycles-and-move-on works; even if the guy who broadcast is a fool and leaves ALL the lights on, your three cycles get him up to about that 40%; he's functioning, and his own cap regen is doing at least some of its job. Anything beyond that point is extra; if you spend another ten seconds dumping cap in, it'll only delay the next broadcast from that ship by five, or thereabouts.

Any plan that starts with "we can get people to 75% by..." is a bad plan.

I disagree with that, all ships are cap stable with their prop mod off (and webs off), they broadcast for cap when they need to burn / are burning, cap regen is meaningless at this moment, they need a bunch of cap right now, not in a minute or so, and they don't need only 1k, that would just be 33 seconds with MWD on for optimal vindy, not even enough to cross a TPPH room. If we feed them just 1k, they'll rebroadcast in a minute or so, leading to the broadcasts walls we see today.

Also, current method fills up to 100% the cap request more often than not, that's way above your 75% limit already.

Edited by Yohan Hita
Typo

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Greetings,

I'm rather new with maybe 3 weeks into Incursions after an 8 year break from Eve, but I'd like to share my experiences here.

I noticed the amount of cap broadcasts often not decreasing with the addition of more Basi pilots to a fleet. While I'm constantly locking Vindicators, Hyperions and occasionally Nightmares and Tempests (depending on Site the composition varies) and give them 3 cycles with a single cap projector, there are usually only a few broadcasts left every now and then, even while contesting. In the end it all depends on the number of Vindicators; if you can lock up 7-9 of them (keeping the required locks ready for current shield broadcasts) and remember who else you are not spraying cap to, then you can easily give cap to everyone not locked on the next lock-cycle, so no broadcast is ever seen.

Yesterday I was the sole Basi in fleet for a pretty long time and we had just 2 cap broadcasts during a contest. In the Logistics channel some were confused about the DPS maybe not overheating or something. But this of course was not possible because of personal skill, but only because the amount of Vindicators being 'just' 9, making memorizing who already got proactive Cap in the TPPHs easier. It also helped a lot by not cluttering up the broadcast history and making it confusingly cramped.

An hour later we had 3-4 Basis and the chat was cramped with many people repeatedly broadcasting for cap - even with several people repeatedly complaining on voicecomms about their cap being dry. Though I noticed some Basi pilots only serving the broadcasts, some (at least one of them) of them were not transfering cap at all. Shield broadcasts were another problem during split-aggro, since many people don't broadcast 'in position' and it ended up with 6 of my locks being occupied by shield broadcasts, while the aggro partially switched on multiple new persons. Not knowing whom to unlock, makes the unlocking rather speculative, so I had to 'guess' which target was not receiving damage any more in order to make room for new shield locks... the cap broadcasts of the 14-16 Vindicators, 5 Nightmares, 4 Hyperions and 1 Tempest  had to be completely ignored in favor of fleet safety. At some point, the amount of cap projectors just isn't enough to keep the broadcast history 'clean'.

And even if people broadcast 'in position' when having received enough cap, can make the broadcast history comparison with the locks quiet complicated. I usually don't have problems doing the Basi job, but sometimes at peaks (and if the other Basis are not distributing cap pro-actively), it can be difficult to browse through the history to determine what to unlock. Unlocking is easier for people in the watchlist, since you can see who's under attack and relock rather fast, but I usually have all Logis in it, the DDDs, the FC, the meatshield, and it quickly adds up to being nearly maxed out.

My recommendation would be to have a single cap-dedicated Basi in each fleet (in addition to the usualy Scimi-Loki-Basi-Mix), capable to equip and run 6 cap transfer arrays and lock 10-13 targets. That way the bulk of the Vindicators could be easily served with a massice amount of proactively distributed cap, and it would make the job of the other Basi pilots to only battlecap the 'problem children' much easier and less stressfull. As I see it, flying Basi is rather stressing for a lot of people, and some surely stop proactive capping every once in a while because they get half a burnout - it's probably not sursprising most people prefer flying Scimmitars or Lokis, since properly flying Basi comes with such a workload, you don't even have time to actively watch out for people out of position or possible DCs. WTM is a shield-based fleet with a probably high amount of Caldari pilots... why our fleets keep having a Basilisk shortage is a thing to think about.

Having a single dedicated Cap-Basi in fleet would make life easier for all the other Basi and Logi pilots as well, freing up broadcast history, making the job much less stressfull for the one proactively capping and freeing up resources and locks(!) for emergencies. And cap projectors having much smaller powergrid and CPU needs than shield transfer arrays would allow anyone to fly them even without a Powergrid rig.

I made two screenshots where I realized it would be possible to keep the whole fleet from constantly broadcasting for cap. The only problem an hour later on was the massive amount of Vindicators and the lack of cap projectors. Also switching targets for proactive battlecapping takes time off of each modules activity time, which could be futher reduced by assigning a single projector to 6 targets each longer. For me proactive battlecapping makes up 75-80% of my workload... I can understand, if many Basi pilots don't proactively distribute cap, since it is a large amount of extra work.

I can also imagine the workload on FCs and searching for new Basi pilots being lower, since a less stressed Basi/Logi pilot would probably be willing to stay in fleet longer, requiring less frequent substitution.

for the time being though, I would recommend to allow such a Basi in fleet only (!) if the FC explicitly requests for one (and of course the Cap-Basi having to leave fleet eventually or re-equip to standard fitting if a new FC doesn't want it).

 

So far, it is just an idea/recommendation. I wanted to see what other Logi pilots and FCs think about it as a possibly viable option to reduce the massive overhead and stress for proactive battlecapping.

kindly regards, Skeltek

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Edited by Skeltek

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So we don’t currently run in fleet (on grid) cap dedicated basis as it wouldn’t be able to fulfill its role as a logisitics ship by way of providing reps. We have pilots bring alts in ospreys or a few champs bring basis to shadow fleet and provide cap to cap hungry hypes etc. You’ll see them as neuts.
 

As FCs if we have the capacity we will ask fleet to consider rewarding those pilots such as scouts/nestors/capsprays/capsilisks for doing their job and helping out fleet but it doesn’t always happen. 
 

Encouraging people who struggle with cap stability to train HSM&CB / use mindflood / manage their mwds better would go a long way in alleviating the strain that basis have to deal with

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2 hours ago, Xavier Allene said:

So we don’t currently run in fleet (on grid) cap dedicated basis as it wouldn’t be able to fulfill its role as a logisitics ship by way of providing reps. We have pilots bring alts in ospreys or a few champs bring basis to shadow fleet and provide cap to cap hungry hypes etc. You’ll see them as neuts.

I understand the reasoning behind it. That's why I suggested only utilizing them only if the FC explicitly asks for it and limit it to just one.

2 hours ago, Xavier Allene said:

As FCs if we have the capacity we will ask fleet to consider rewarding those pilots such as scouts/nestors/capsprays/capsilisks for doing their job and helping out fleet but it doesn’t always happen. 

Yeah, I also donated a few times. They're not always there though. And if their occasional presence was sufficient, there wouldn't be cases where people turn off guns to save cap, several members having to wait half a minute for cap or people getting skipped or forgotten. Too often I see people broadcasting for cap multiple times, even though they were already received several cycles of cap...

2 hours ago, Xavier Allene said:

Encouraging people who struggle with cap stability to train HSM&CB / use mindflood / manage their mwds better would go a long way in alleviating the strain that basis have to deal with

Yes, that's an ideal long-term solution. It is inconvenient though, if WTM keeps getting new untrained additions (which is good in it's own way) and the rare cases where 10-15 people broadcast for cap at the same time during a split-aggro to split-aggro transition are making problems. It is rare for a Basi pilot not being able to keep up, especially with slow fleets. I am unsure though, if the 'ideal' would help against a differing reality (not meant negatively, it's just how I perceived it until now).

But with fast fleets and a lot of cap hungry ships, a 'giving a recommendation for futher training' doesn't help immediately alleviating the issue at hand during a contest or whatever. In the end just a few turned off guns per Vindicator could easily decide on winning or loosing a contest.

You are much more experienced with leading Fleets, so you are probably right. But I wanted to give some feedback here, since I often noticed a massive surplus of Scimitars, while the whole Fleet had to wait for a Basi replacement or had to tell a well experienced DPS to change ships to a Basi. Also the need would be eliminated, to have a minimum of 2 Basilisks, while there's an oversufficiently large amount of Scimitars at hand, which could take over the logistics part of remote repair.

Please don't consider my feedback as coming from someone who believes 'to know it better'. What you make of my input is up to you guys, I'm just trying to help.

Edited by Skeltek

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Not all vindies need proactive cap. Soon, basi pilots can know many of best and worst of these by name. Feel free to name the worst "Carol-ones"

When I basi I often fill my watchlist with pilots who cap broadcast and try to make them not to. Then I add to the list, and so on.

It may be stressful but mostly, its in the choice of a basi pilot. I hate to see cap broadcasts, especially the walls - they are ususlly sign for basi subpar (or uber bad fleet but less often).

Many basis though would give fixed number cycles to each new broadcast, no more, no less, maybe skip some, and move on. If its not enough for dps/snipers, meh, "they are bad and need to learn to use their cap better". As long as you are not that basi, ok for me.

Rarely but it happened we had a few tpph in a row with no cap broadcasts other then tribute to Outuni, and that felt good.

Edited by Charr Coal

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3 hours ago, Charr Coal said:

Not all vindies need proactive cap. Soon, basi pilots can know many of best and worst of these by name. Feel free to name the worst "Carol-ones"

When I basi I often fill my watchlist with pilots who cap broadcast and try to make them not to. Then I add to the list, and so on.

Yeah, it's usually just 3 or 4 people needing frequent help, and a few just broadcasting on occasions. And admittedly, such regular fleets are not really problematic and rather get boring to cap-support. What I'm talking about is those '16-18 Vindicator + 4 Nightmare + 3 Hyperion' fleets I recently experienced, where having 4-5 Basilisks doesn't really help against the upcoming simultaneous broadcasts of 12-14 people. Even though I was proactively cycling through the most demanding guys, the buildup of cap deficit seemed inevitable.

3 hours ago, Charr Coal said:

It may be stressful but mostly, its in the choice of a basi pilot. I hate to see cap broadcasts, especially the walls - they are ususlly sign for basi subpar (or uber bad fleet but less often).

Many basis though would give fixed number cycles to each new broadcast, no more, no less, maybe skip some, and move on. If its not enough for dps/snipers, meh, "they are bad and need to learn to use their cap better". As long as you are not that basi, ok for me.

Not really that stressfull, just feels like investing much more work than needed, which could be used elsewhere like spotting DCed members.

3 hours ago, Charr Coal said:

Rarely but it happened we had a few tpph in a row with no cap broadcasts other then tribute to Outuni, and that felt good.

Yeah I agree, had that just yesterday for like nearly an hour, felt nice.
Maybe I just experienced a really bad day or something, which may be a rarer occurence than I currently think. Having more than a dozen people screaming for cap simultaneously just made me think. Especially after someone already received 4-5 cycles and immediately broadcasts for cap again 10 seconds later.

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There is another technique for cap-hunrgy fleets like you described. Of 4-5 basis  2-3 select a few "special" targets they would be responsible for and focus precapping them. Other focus broadcasts

That takes 2-3 willing to do non-standard thing, which is not everyday but happens.

Also, if you have capspreys/silisks, coordinate with them

Edited by Charr Coal

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Thanks for your answer. Yeah, I know those techniques, also work well when not alone and Vindicator pilots not changing all the time. And admittedly, over the past few days I did not experience such fleets. Even boosting as the only Basi is kind of extremely relaxed (almost easy/boring to the point of getting sleepy). I probably just unluckily had the false impression about such fleets being moe common/regular with constantly switching members.

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On 03/12/2021 at 11:33 PM, Skeltek said:

Thanks for your answer. Yeah, I know those techniques, also work well when not alone and Vindicator pilots not changing all the time. And admittedly, over the past few days I did not experience such fleets. Even boosting as the only Basi is kind of extremely relaxed (almost easy/boring to the point of getting sleepy). I probably just unluckily had the false impression about such fleets being moe common/regular with constantly switching members.

Yeah some fleets can be like that with constantly switching people.  Some you will also get a lot of newer pilots with the starter vindi which is cap hungry due to the prop mod.

 

Overall you're doing well mate.  I do notice you pre-emptively giving rolls cap (mostly when you're giving it to me :) ).  A way we used to do it long ago was using logi chat.  If you're getting spammed with cap requests you can get the basi's to list the first 3-4 letters of who their capping that way you're not doubling up.

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