Yohan Hita

Serving cap broadcast, a better method?

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55 minutes ago, Malcolm Galora said:

It's something you learn from being an Logi Master, it doesn't conflict with our standard protocols. If you can work within the norm and improve efficiency then by all means, just please don't confuse people with new ways of doing things, especially for our newbro Basi pilots.

I'll absolutely not step on anyone's toes and try to to impose any new or confusing methods outside of doctrine.  But I think institutional momentum shouldn't be the strongest argument against potentially positive changes.  I'm not great at explaining things, but it honestly is not difficult to manage cap broadcasts the way everyone did in TVP years ago.

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1 hour ago, Malcolm Galora said:

It's a way to prevent you from overcapping someone who doesn't broadcast in position, keeping at 100% isn't the endgoal. When you are proactively capping you can prevent cap broadcasts at all by looking to see who is full or not and cycling cap on every cap hungry target.

In a newbro community like WTM we need a setup that ensures everyone is doing what they should and communicating with each other effectively. This isn't TVP where everyone is Pro level with good skills, implants, and top tier fits where your cap broadcasts are sensible, and you don't have people capping themselves out by leaving their MWD on. This is our tried and true method, and I would suggest you learn it well If you want to do LC regularly. As every LC is expected to run it the same way.

Again it seems that you do not understand what I am trying to point out. Cap transfers are back loaded, so when you see your cap transfer gave less than 351, the module is already on its next cycle, effectively losing 2 cycles of cap to know the ship is full. It will prevent you from overcapping even further, yes, but it still wastes a lot and is very time consuming for the Basi pilot.

The picture of TVP is awfully wrong. Yes they were more demanding than WTM (and that might not even be true anymore with the recent anti-sandbag campaign) but there was always a couple of newbros (whom they taught and trained, I was one of them at some point), nowhere near everyone had top skills and fits, and I can assure you cap broadcasts were not that sensible ...

"This is our tried and true method" so much that it fails on every single post-downtime fleet. I practiced it so well I can say that when there are 8 cap broadcasts in rather quick successions in a TPPH, half of them just get ignored by most Basi pilots, simply because they tend to look at just the last one or two cap broadcasts. (I did count, multiple times)

"In a newbro community like WTM" Why do you consider everyone without a badge as a noob who knows nothing about incursions? Newbros learn and become proficient, and it doesn't take that long.

 

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20 minutes ago, Yohan Hita said:

"This is our tried and true method" so much that it fails on every single post-downtime fleet. I practiced it so well I can say that when there are 8 cap broadcasts in rather quick successions in a TPPH, half of them just get ignored by most Basi pilots, simply because they tend to look at just the last one or two cap broadcasts. (I did count, multiple times)

That's not a failure of the method, that's a failure of Logi attentiveness. You would most likely run into the same problems either way.

28 minutes ago, Yohan Hita said:

"In a newbro community like WTM" Why do you consider everyone without a badge as a noob who knows nothing about incursions? Newbros learn and become proficient, and it doesn't take that long.

I would be really stupid to consider every line pilot as knowing nothing. I like that people like to think about these things, regardless of who they are. It shows they care. But the only way to get change to go through is to become a commander. WTM is a very bureaucratic safety orientated community. Whenever we want to do something new, we sit and discuss then we discuss some more. Established procedure rarely changes unless there is some good reason for it. We are most comfortable with what we are most familiar with. I like to hear the discussion though, its always nice to hear different perspectives.

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It's really strange to me that this thread has gone on for what, a week? and nobody's mentioned that getting battleships to 75% cap isn't actually a reasonable goal, it's the *limit*. Fill somebody up to 75% and their cap regen decreases so much that they can drain just from running their invulns. (The crap Hyperion fit+pilot I keep in pyfa is stable at 62% with just their tank on.) The fleet does not need us over-capping people like this.

What the fleet does need is to keep all the battleships energized enough to fight. About 40% is good; it's enough to pulse your prop mod and fire a wad of antimatter without triggering an alarm. This is why three-cycles-and-move-on works; even if the guy who broadcast is a fool and leaves ALL the lights on, your three cycles get him up to about that 40%; he's functioning, and his own cap regen is doing at least some of its job. Anything beyond that point is extra; if you spend another ten seconds dumping cap in, it'll only delay the next broadcast from that ship by five, or thereabouts.

Any plan that starts with "we can get people to 75% by..." is a bad plan.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Malcolm Galora said:

That's not a failure of the method, that's a failure of Logi attentiveness. You would most likely run into the same problems either way.

Logis can't spend 10/20 seconds scrolling down broadcasts and cross check with Basichat just to make sure all cap requests have been served and with enough cap, the more cap broadcasts, the more time consuming it gets, meaning it doesn't scale, leading to these issues, attentiveness is not the problem. (and not all pilots have a 30 tall broadcast history window)

3 cycles method: you lock and cap all the broadcasts, no questions, no check, it's fast, mechanical, doesn't forget anyone, doesn't get slower to process when there are many requests.

The vast majority of the time, cap broadcasts are 10/20 seconds appart, the concerns about the time to reach an 8th broadcast are overblown. Worst case, we could ask LC to work cap requests backward to shorten the wait time when walls happen.

It uses more locks? Yes, but in TPPH and NRF, very few locks are needed for shield broadcasts anyway, TCRC? There are not many cap requests, they don't pile up, so not a problem here either.

1 hour ago, Imelda Virpio said:

It's really strange to me that this thread has gone on for what, a week? and nobody's mentioned that getting battleships to 75% cap isn't actually a reasonable goal, it's the *limit*. Fill somebody up to 75% and their cap regen decreases so much that they can drain just from running their invulns. (The crap Hyperion fit+pilot I keep in pyfa is stable at 62% with just their tank on.) The fleet does not need us over-capping people like this.

What the fleet does need is to keep all the battleships energized enough to fight. About 40% is good; it's enough to pulse your prop mod and fire a wad of antimatter without triggering an alarm. This is why three-cycles-and-move-on works; even if the guy who broadcast is a fool and leaves ALL the lights on, your three cycles get him up to about that 40%; he's functioning, and his own cap regen is doing at least some of its job. Anything beyond that point is extra; if you spend another ten seconds dumping cap in, it'll only delay the next broadcast from that ship by five, or thereabouts.

Any plan that starts with "we can get people to 75% by..." is a bad plan.

I disagree with that, all ships are cap stable with their prop mod off (and webs off), they broadcast for cap when they need to burn / are burning, cap regen is meaningless at this moment, they need a bunch of cap right now, not in a minute or so, and they don't need only 1k, that would just be 33 seconds with MWD on for optimal vindy, not even enough to cross a TPPH room. If we feed them just 1k, they'll rebroadcast in a minute or so, leading to the broadcasts walls we see today.

Also, current method fills up to 100% the cap request more often than not, that's way above your 75% limit already.

Edited by Yohan Hita
Typo

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