Mad Anii

Forced into roles

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Hello,

I'm fairly new to WTM fleets. I was asked by a FC to put X into fleet chat, I said on voice why is that? He said put X in fleet, so I did. He said you are now MTAC for the rest of the sites. He said if you cannot then leave fleet. There were multiple suitable ships in fleet and my name was called, so my evening of incursions was cut short because of this.

I checked the rules and I cannot see where someone can be forced into doing roles. I was happy in the fleet all day long, pointing out directions for some new guys and shooting all my targets all day, until the FC changed and targetted me, then told me to leave fleet if I am not going to do it, which I did.

Is this a forced requirement when a FC randomly chooses your name? I was under the impression roles are optionional, as I can't see these in the rules anywhere.

Thank you.

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Every role in fleet is required to run sites, most of the time people will volunteer for them, but when no one volunteers FC is forced to choose. Every role has an optimal ship that it is paired with. Drone bunnies are best served by Vindicators do to their hull bonuses to application. AAA is usually a nightmare because of their tank for meatshielding. And MTACs are typically always a mach due to their high base speed. One of the reasons machs are considered an optimal ship is there ability to be great MTACs, it's why we require them all to fit a tractor beam. MTAC is a crucial role for TCRCs (we can't run them without at least 1) so if no one is volunteering FC is going to pick a macharial at random. Denying an FCs request for the role falls under not following FC commands, which is under their discretion to remove them from fleet or not. Everyone needs to do their part to make a fleet work. Not knowing a role is something we can help with, not wanting to participate is another thing entirely.

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So we typically follow the idea that we need people to take roles and if nobody Xs for the role then we will pick somebody. If that person says no to the role then they are not willing to participate in fleet and keep us going so we ask that you join us when you are willing to participate and take roles when we need you to. To be totally honest one of the only reasons Mach is still considered an optimal ship is because it performs the sniper roles well. So if Machs start to not take roles then we may look into removing them from an optimal ship or we may just make it a rule that Machs must take a sniper role when asked so these issues don't keep happening.

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36 minutes ago, Mad Anii said:

Hello,

I'm fairly new to WTM fleets. I was asked by a FC to put X into fleet chat, I said on voice why is that? He said put X in fleet, so I did. He said you are now MTAC for the rest of the sites. He said if you cannot then leave fleet. There were multiple suitable ships in fleet and my name was called, so my evening of incursions was cut short because of this.

I checked the rules and I cannot see where someone can be forced into doing roles. I was happy in the fleet all day long, pointing out directions for some new guys and shooting all my targets all day, until the FC changed and targetted me, then told me to leave fleet if I am not going to do it, which I did.

Is this a forced requirement when a FC randomly chooses your name? I was under the impression roles are optionional, as I can't see these in the rules anywhere.

Thank you.

Please dont feel bad about this. take it on your other fleet members that did not step up having the ship or the skill.
and everyone in fleet should thank you because of you the fleet keep going. I know might be its overwhelming but you did nothing wrong. Next time keep doing your best. and your worst will be the best because no one else step up, they cannot complain because no one else step up. 

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7 minutes ago, Malcolm Galora said:

Every role in fleet is required to run sites, most of the time people will volunteer for them, but when no one volunteers FC is forced to choose. Every role has an optimal ship that it is paired with. Drone bunnies are best served by Vindicators do to their hull bonuses to application. AAA is usually a nightmare because of their tank for meatshielding. And MTACs are typically always a mach due to their high base speed. One of the reasons machs are considered an optimal ship is there ability to be great MTACs, it's why we require them all to fit a tractor beam. MTAC is a crucial role for TCRCs (we can't run them without at least 1) so if no one is volunteering FC is going to pick a macharial at random. Denying an FCs request for the role falls under not following FC commands, which is under their discretion to remove them from fleet or not. Everyone needs to do their part to make a fleet work. Not knowing a role is something we can help with, not wanting to participate is another thing entirely.

The FC in question took over the fleet and it was the 2nd site we were heading to because we just lost a contest to TDF. It wasn't even 2 minutes waiting for a volunteer. He said he is going to be more harsh than normal because there is a huge waitlist. 2 minutes later he said my name, that was it and I had to leave fleet. I understand the requirement for roles, but it was a random selection and poof, straight out of the fleet.

I was asking for clarification if this is a rule or not as I couldn't see it anywhere being forced to do a role or be kicked. So you are saying yes it is a rule?

7 minutes ago, Toh Kay Manifess said:

So we typically follow the idea that we need people to take roles and if nobody Xs for the role then we will pick somebody. If that person says no to the role then they are not willing to participate in fleet and keep us going so we ask that you join us when you are willing to participate and take roles when we need you to. To be totally honest one of the only reasons Mach is still considered an optimal ship is because it performs the sniper roles well. So if Machs start to not take roles then we may look into removing them from an optimal ship or we may just make it a rule that Machs must take a sniper role when asked so these issues don't keep happening.

I had a bling Mach for the start, saved up enough to multibox then realised multiboxing is very rare and it was a waste of a 2nd Mach. So I sold the bling fit Mach the other day and now I'm flying entry level Mach. The reason for this is because I've just injected a load of SP into my char for flying Leshak...something better for the fleet. I've now lost out on a good few hundred mil of ISK making tonight to help pay towards a better ship.

If you wish to remove Machs entirely, that will be your call on this. My fit was entry level rubbish and purely because I'm about to save the last bit of ISK for a better fleet ship.

There must be an understanding some people cannot 100% focus on performing a role though, especially something that is time critical such as MTAC.

 

Thank you.

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2 minutes ago, Mad Anii said:

I had a bling Mach for the start, saved up enough to multibox then realized multiboxing is very rare and it was a waste of a 2nd Mach. So I sold the bling fit Mach the other day and now I'm flying entry level Mach. The reason for this is because I've just injected a load of SP into my char for flying Leshak...something better for the fleet. I've now lost out on a good few hundred mil of ISK making tonight to help pay towards a better ship.

If you wish to remove Machs entirely, that will be your call on this. My fit was entry level rubbish and purely because I'm about to save the last bit of ISK for a better fleet ship.

There must be an understanding some people cannot 100% focus on performing a role though, especially something that is time critical such as MTAC.

 

Thank you.

Frankly if you can't focus on fleet then you shouldn't be in fleet. Continuously contesting is a high stress and time sensitive situation. FC can't be waiting around for more then a couple minutes at most for a volunteer and when somebody says no that just means somebody can't do what the fleet needs at the moment so come back when you can and more time is wasted looking for somebody else who can do that. It is an expectation that our pilots can do a role when it needs to be down.

Also, it's great that you are skilling into a Leshak and we're looking forward to you being able to fly it but in the mean time the role of MTAC needs to filled and unfortunately we can't waste time going from mach to mach who say no to the role especially in situations like the one that the fleet and FC where in at that time. So the answer to you're question is yes, technically this is an expectation and rule we have for pilots and if we need to make this a written out specifically in the R&R we will do that shortly.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Toh Kay Manifess said:

Frankly if you can't focus on fleet then you shouldn't be in fleet. Continuously contesting is a high stress and time sensitive situation. FC can't be waiting around for more then a couple minutes at most for a volunteer and when somebody says no that just means somebody can't do what the fleet needs at the moment so come back when you can and more time is wasted looking for somebody else who can do that. It is an expectation that our pilots can do a role when it needs to be down.

Also, it's great that you are skilling into a Leshak and we're looking forward to you being able to fly it but in the mean time the role of MTAC needs to filled and unfortunately we can't waste time going from mach to mach who say no to the role especially in situations like the one that the fleet and FC where in at that time. So the answer to you're question is yes, technically this is an expectation and rule we have for pilots and if we need to make this a written out specifically in the R&R we will do that shortly.

I've been fully focused on fleet, the logis can verify I broadcast perfectly on time and helped with spotting fleet members drifting off in the wrong direction. It wasn't continuous contests, it was the 1st one and we did have an MTAC guy (I think he was called Captain Highfield) already doing it, then we went to a NRF at the time of being told to X up and then told to leave.

So the answer is yes, it is a rule. If FC chooses you at random and you cannot do the role, then you will be removed. Could you point me to where this is stipulated please as I missed it in the list of rules? As it seems to be a grey area where it's "voluntary" or "expectation". The concern now will be how often I am randomly chosen in the future whilst others continue to make the ISK and I have to leave.

I hope not to targetted again and continue making ISK towards my Leshak.

Thank you.

Edited by Mad Anii

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5 minutes ago, Mad Anii said:

I've been fully focused on fleet, the logis can verify I broadcast perfectly on time and helped with spotting fleet members drifting off in the wrong direction. It wasn't a continuous contests, it was the 1st one and we did have an MTAC guy already doing it, then we went to a NRF at the time of being told to X up.

So the answer is yes, it is a rule. If FC chooses you at random and you cannot do the role, then you will be removed. Could you point me to where this is stipulated please as I missed it in the list of rules? As it seems to be a grey area where it's "voluntary" or "expectation". The concern now will be how often I am randomly chosen in the future whilst others continue to make the ISK and I have to leave.

I hope not to targetted again and continue making ISK towards my Leshak.

Thank you.

If you can fully focus on fleet then you can fully focus on mtac, no? It's an easy role that is only required during TCRCs. Nobody is singling you out or targeting you. If somebody else was picked and said no they they would also be asked to leave. It is a necessary part of fleet. We require all pilots to follow FC instructions. If you say no to a necessary role FC asked you to do they you are not following FC instruction and are not willing to participate in fleet. The practice use to be that if nobody is Xing up for a role then the fleet would just stand down because nobody is willing to fill a role that need to be filled. Most of us feel the way we have it now is better practice.

 

The point i'm trying to make is that if everybody says no to the role then what are we left with? Not doing TCRCs. What if nobody Xs up for VVV or AAA? then we don't do any sites. We aren't going to sacrifice the fleet because people don't want to do a role so sometimes we need to make people do a role and if they can't then we have to get somebody who can.

If you are randomly chosen to do the role and want to continue making isk then just do the role and then when you are finally in a leshak you won't have to worry about being an MTAC ever again.

So since this rule is not an obvious expectation and necessity to fleet we will be adding a "Pilot Expectations" section to our R&R soon.

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As an FC that seems to have a problem with people actually x-ing up for roles, I am put in a position where I constantly have to assign roles to people, and I have 3 things to say about this,

1) If you are assigned a role and do not want to do it, as @Malcolm Galora said, I would deem it as failure to follow fc commands,
2) We assign roles to get people to learn roles, so they are more likely to x-up in future for that role.

3) You were not `targeted` my guess is most fc's that was met with a no when asking someone to take a role, would remove that person from the fleet.

As a little side note, when picking roles, I will primary go for people I see in fleet alot, and not taking roles.


Most people when picking roles, will look at the fleet composition, sort by ship type, pick one of the ship type needed, and that will be his choice, its completly random

I know I am only a trainee fc, but as I said, I have problems getting people to x-up for roles most of my fleets.

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7 minutes ago, Toh Kay Manifess said:

If you can fully focus on fleet then you can fully focus on mtac, no? It's an easy role that is only required during TCRCs. Nobody is singling you out or targeting you. If somebody else was picked and said no they they would also be asked to leave. It is a necessary part of fleet. We require all pilots to follow FC instructions. If you say no to a necessary role FC asked you to do they you are not following FC instruction and are not willing to participate in fleet. The practice use to be that if nobody is Xing up for a role then the fleet would just stand down because nobody is willing to fill a role that need to be filled. Most of us feel the way we have it now is better practice.

 

The point i'm trying to make is that if everybody says no to the role then what are we left with? Not doing TCRCs. What if nobody Xs up for VVV or AAA? then we don't do any sites. We aren't going to sacrifice the fleet because people don't want to do a role so sometimes we need to make people do a role and if they can't then we have to get somebody who can.

If you are randomly chosen to do the role and want to continue making isk then just do the role and then when you are finally in a leshak you won't have to worry about being an MTAC ever again.

So since this rule is not an obvious expectation and necessity to fleet we will be adding a "Pilot Expectations" section to our R&R soon.

Focus on fleet warps and F1 on a target is different to being a MTAC as if that pickup / drop is missed, it messes up the entire fleet and everyone loses out on ISK.

As mentioned we were about to enter a NRF and already had a MTAC at the time. He is still in fleet now.

It will take a little longer now until I can get into that Leshak as I had planned.

I'm glad it will be added in the future as I was sure I couldn't find it anywhere in the WTM rules and regulations anywhere. It was quite suprising being told do it or get out of fleet after I've been flying with WTM fleets with no issues.
 

6 minutes ago, Leigham UD9D said:

As an FC that seems to have a problem with people actually x-ing up for roles, I am put in a position where I constantly have to assign roles to people, and I have 3 things to say about this,

1) If you are assigned a role and do not want to do it, as @Malcolm Galora said, I would deem it as failure to follow fc commands,
2) We assign roles to get people to learn roles, so they are more likely to x-up in future for that role.

3) You were not `targeted` my guess is most fc's that was met with a no when asking someone to take a role, would remove that person from the fleet.

As a little side note, when picking roles, I will primary go for people I see in fleet alot, and not taking roles.


Most people when picking roles, will look at the fleet composition, sort by ship type, pick one of the ship type needed, and that will be his choice, its completly random

I know I am only a trainee fc, but as I said, I have problems getting people to x-up for roles most of my fleets.

1) Do not want / cannot do it. I wasn't asked why I couldn't do it. Either do it or get out is what I was told.
2) It wasn't a requirement though, we had MTAC already and was entering a NRF.
3) Some people play the AFK game and don't respond to the FC when asking for roles. I was present, I verbally answered on TS yes I'm here, he asked me to put an X, I asked why is that? Just do it he said, so I did and that was it, you're now MTAC for the rest of the sites... I said I cannot do that. He said leave fleet, so I did and said goodbye.

The ones that keep quiet, lurk in the background don't seem to be randomly asked from what I have seen, as you say it's normally the regulars. So the more you participate, the more chance you'll recognise the name and 'target' or 'select' that person again.

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Getting kicked for not being able to do a role, not allowed. Getting kicked for not wanting to do a role, allowed. The whole purpose of machariel is to MTAC.

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You are not the first or the last one i asked to leave fleet upon refusing to take a role when asked to do it. After you left i went to the next mach.

At some point we had 3 MTACs today. And at some point in one of my fleets i told all the machs (5) to perform the MTAC role at the same time. And they did.

Its a group activity. Mac is for MTAC.

Ive witnessed FCs shutting down the whole fleet cuz ppl were not willing to do roles. I decided instead of shutting it down i will just remove people who dont want to play.

If you dont want to participate, you dont want to play, thats completely fine. But then dont be in fleet. 

o7
niki

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4 minutes ago, niki lasvegas said:

You are not the first or the last one i asked to leave fleet upon refusing to take a role when asked to do it. After you left i went to the next mach.

At some point we had 3 MTACs today. And at some point in one of my fleets i told all the machs (5) to perform the MTAC role at the same time. And they did.

Its a group activity. Mac is for MTAC.

Ive witnessed FCs shutting down the whole fleet cuz ppl were not willing to do roles. I decided instead of shutting it down i will just remove people who dont want to play.

If you dont want to participate, you dont want to play, thats completely fine. But then dont be in fleet. 

o7
niki

Hi Niki,

Just so you know, I'm not here to argue or disrupt, that's why I've not mentioned the FC name in here anywhere. I came here looking for clarification if this was an actual rule or not. As it stands from what the posts state above, currently it's not a rule, but more of a grey area where people are requested to perform a role and then the FC can say to leave.

I wasn't asked if I could do the role, I was told do it or instantly get out (I had to CTRL Space as the gate was already activated) as we were about to enter a NRF, not a TCRC. My name was the only one you called out. I had been shooting Sansha all day long, then you had just stepped up as the FC as Henry had finished. We went straight in for a TCRC contest with TDF which we lost as they had 13 Leshaks. You already had Captain Highfield doing MTAC. We then got repairs and warped to NRF gate, at this point is when you called my name on TS. You said Mad Anii, are you here? I said yes on TS. OK X up in fleet you said, I said why? You said just do it. So I did, you then said right you're now MTAC for the rest of the sites, go read the guide. I said I can't. You said OK then leave fleet. I said OK and goodbye. So as you can see it wasn't a request can you do it, it was either do it or don't fly with WTM fleets. I could see that Captain Highfield in his Mach continued to stay in the TS channel after I was told to go, when I popped on TS again about an hour later. So due to my name being called out, that was my evening of ISK making cut off.

Nobody asked if I could or could not do it nor was I told what I was Xing up for, I was just told that's it, you're now MTAC for the rest of the sites. There's a difference between being asked or being forced into doing a role. Some people have things going off in the background with real life. At no point do I jeopardise my ship and always follow FC. I broadcast on time, I shoot all my targets and help out the newbro's where I can.

Please note my Mach is rubbish, it's entry level fitting and I chose that just the other day on purpose. I sold off the bling Mach and kept the entry Mach because I'm just days away from being in a Leshak spending all the ISK I made in WTM on skillpoint injectors. If I am kicked out of fleet, I can't make ISK and it delays the better ship joining in fleet each day. I know I haven't done anything wrong, but I felt targetted and singled out. I listen, I help and do what I can in fleet just like the others. I understand the whole sentiment of having roles and the requirement, but it does need to be stated in the rules or 'Player Expectations'. When reading the rules and FC requests, it currently is voluntary or politely requested if someone can do the role or not.

Hopefully you can understand where I am coming from 1/ Is it a rule or not (answered above) and 2/ I was forced, not asked if I can do it and it ruined my entire evening of EVE.

Hopefully I have enough ISK soon to jump into a Leshak, this is what I've been doing incursions hard for each day to improve the fleet composition. See you in fleet.

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Posted (edited)

Site doesnt matter (NRF or TPPH is the perfect time to read the guide and understand it anyway), it also doesnt matter if you think we already have enough ppl for the role or not.
What matters is this: FC tells you to read a simple guide and perform a simple role, and you dont even want to bother trying then there is no room for you in fleet.
There are plenty who wants to actually try instead of you, just not enough room for them.


Truth is, i asked for a 2nd MTAC for quite a while (even before the contest) and specifically asked machs to do it. No one did. After about 15-20 minutes of continuously asking without names.  I decided to start to sort out the situation 1 by 1 , looking at machs. Told you to read the guide and do the MTAC if we get to a TCRC. Not even trying to do this is just not an option in my fleets.

Its actually really infuriating, when people are not even bothering to actually play the game and the role they are supposed to in a group activity which requires group effort 

Once again this was nothing personally against you, I did this multiple times in the past and will do it in the future, calling out pilots and asking them to X-up in fleetchat to make sure they are actually listening. It happened before you, it happened after you. You not remembering/hearing/not being there for it doesnt mean it did not happen.

If you are not able to participate on the level that is expected because of real life or something else going on it is absolutely fine. Just dont expect to get paid like everyone else who are actually trying.

Edited by niki lasvegas
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