[Idea] Cap Stable Basilisk; yah or nay?

[Elathy Maricadie 2]

While this may have been brought up in the past; I do think it has great potential as a viable option to eliminate the biggest vulnerability of Basilisks, the Cap-Chain; just a fair warning there will be a quite a few comparisons between the "normal" 4/2 Basi fit, lets dive into it:

Spoiler

[Basilisk, 5/1 Incursion CapStable Basi]
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Damage Control II

Thukker Large Cap Battery
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Large Shield Extender II

Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Imperial Navy Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Fit changes, compared to the normal 4/2 Basi fit, are as follows:

• 5x Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Transfers instead of the normal 4x T2 Large Remote Shield Transfer
• Thukker Large Cap Battery replacing the Faction Remote Sensor Booster
• True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay (optimal) or just keep the Faction Power Diagnostics Unit (will be cap stable at lower cap levels around 31.9%, instead of the 47.5% with the CPR)
• Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II for extra Cap Recharge rather then the Medium Ancillary Current Router II

The Fits performance/Stats (this is with all skills affecting the fit @ Level V and no implants):

 

This fit is capable of repairing 317.5 Shield HP/s. While the current 4/2 Basilisk is capable of repairing up to 340 Shield HP/s, with all 4 reps running which we all know is rarely the case. In a worst case scenario, the whole cap-chain of 5-6 basilisks breaks and not quick enough to recover in time (especially in TCRCs), it could very like result in the destruction of the entire fleet. So having a fleet of Cap Stable logistics will pretty much eliminate this risk entirely

 

I just want to also throw this into the context; it's also cap stable with 4x Medium A-Type and 1x T2 Large Shield Transfer; yielding repair capability of 339 Shield HP/s.(stable at 34.5% cap).

 

So, I now ask my fellow logi-pilots; What are your thoughts?

[Kimina Tanai 74]

I absolutely hate your poll options. It is perfectly possible for me to show you why this fit won't work, but your "no" option assumes that the only reason I would say no is because I refuse to look at it. 

We have a billion tools and testing methods to prove out fits. Please do not assume we are unwilling to evaluate. Doing so is likely to just anger the most valuable people to your cause.

[Elathy Maricadie 2]

And what is wrong with option 1 in the poll? It's not like it a "Yes, we'll immediately take it into use", it's meant as "yes, but needs to be tested/investigated more"

[Malcolm Galora 373]

This is/has been looked at, the main issue right now is the deadspace reps and it's market stability. There are some meta/t2 repper versions but they have other issues

[niki lasvegas 537]

The idea itself works... actually more than that, it is really appealing. There are also several fits for cap stable basi that work.
But.
There are several issues with this for WTM.
We have been discussing this for i dont even know how long for now. I believe first it was Canyon trying to do something with it a long long time ago.
As far as me, i have been having this conversation for about a year.

Edited April 20, 2019 by niki lasvegas

[Izumi Uchiya MD 214]

Cap stable basi came under very recent discussion internally. When it comes to rolling out to the entire community there's a lot of factors to consider, but yeah it has potential. 

Clearly you've put some thought into the idea. If you want to continue, you might consider applying for our logi master program!

[Elathy Maricadie 2]

1 minute ago, Izumi Uchiya said:

you might consider applying for our logi master program!

I have actually considered that, and it's probably just a matter of when;

 

I have years of experience flying Logistic Cruisers (Basilisk, Scimitar, Onieros and Guardian), mostly basilisk, in incursions (VG, AS and HQs). I started out, way back when incursions were first introduced, flying with TVP first as DPS (waiting hours just for small chance to get into fleet annoyed me) then I started flying logi, although it could still be tough at times trying to get into fleet, but flying logistic cruisers grew on me and I kept at it. Things happened in RL and I had to take a passive-break from EVE, kept myself updated and did a few activities here and there whenever I could, when I was able to play on a more regularly basis I looked back into joining an Incursion Community and I did take a look at TVP; to my surprise they were no-longer the community as I remembered/expected them to be, not that I didn't expect them to change, but they had almost become an "Elite" group that would only accept the "elite" among the "elite" (that's how it appeared to me). So I when on to search for a new more relaxed group and I did, OIC (Open Incursion Channel) an Armor Fleet community, I would be hard pressed to find an incursion group that would be that "newbro" friendly, relaxed and being so respecting of its members, sadly that community is dead, WTM does come very close to the spirit that existed in OIC but there are small but subtle differences.

 

Elathy is just one of my characters that I've been flying Incursions with, lately it's been the primary one. Didn't quite intend to spout out my incursion history, oh well 

There are a few I remember having flown with a lot but they may not quite remember me; niki Lasvegas, boldielocks, Charlemane, McHammer just to mention a few on top of my head

 

[Davionious 27]

Question - if you are going to run Deadspace mediums, how does the Basi compare to a Loki or Tengu?

[Elathy Maricadie 2]

In case of a Tengu fit I imagine that it would look something like this:

Spoiler

[Tengu, *Tengu]
Damage Control II
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Sentient Signal Amplifier
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Thukker Large Cap Battery
Sentient Remote Sensor Booster
Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier

Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Information Command Burst II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Tengu Core - Augmented Graviton Reactor
Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Offensive - Support Processor
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

Sensor Optimization Charge x600
Scan Resolution Script x1

However it only has an optimal range of 7250m compared to the Basilisk's 32km optimal range; I bet that such a big different makes it ineffecient in a setup where you're spread out as much as you are in Incursion sites. And you don't have "option" to use it for supplying combat cap.

Edited April 22, 2019 by Elathy Maricadie

[Elathy Maricadie 2]

On the plus side of such a ship, you'd have a fair amount of Neut resistance

[Zane Chakaid 24]

First of all, I'm about to piss all over your idea -so, sorry for that.  I think it's great that you're thinking about stuff like this though.  I'm all about moving forward and improving.  Unfortunately, I think this idea requires too many compromises, doesn't provide enough benefit, and either raises the barrier of entry to flying basilisk or requires that a cap chain still be maintained.

First, let's talk barrier to entry.  The fit requires Logistics Cruisers V just to get started, which will limit the pool of available logi.  Of course, most pilots do quickly train logi V, but this will slightly increase the chances of running low on logi.

Second, the fit makes several compromises

• 7% less repping power
• 32% more expensive than the opti Basi, and 274% more expensive than the minimum fit
• Buffer EHP is lower than the opti and minimum fits by 7.5% and 29.4% respectively. This is combined with diminished repping power for the fleet -which is not inconsequential considering logistics cruisers are already the most frequently lost ships.
• No room for a sig amp (which reducses lock times, significantly decreases the chances of being jammed by Niarja [still quite likely to be jammed by the 3x arnon though], and grants up to 2 extra locks for pre-locking agro magnets and dealing with split agro).
• No room for a ReSeBo, which greatly helps the DDD to kill Niarjas -which, in turn, improves fleet safety.  FC's often fit ReSeBo's, but up to three scripted, faction ReSeBo's will have an effect on lock times.

Finally, it just doesn't give enough benefit.  New logi often fumble with the cap chain, and older logi sometimes make mistakes, but it eventually becomes as easy as locking and shooting targets, and issues are (usually) rapidly addressed.  Moreover, if 1 unstable basi joins, then a stable basi still has to give them cap.  And if more unstable basi's join, you haven't actually eliminated the cap chain, you've just exempted yourself from it through significant compromise.  Besides, the biggest PITA of flying a basi isn't the chain, it's slinging cap to all those thirsty vindis and T1 blaster boats.  To me, managing the cap chain is just one those skills you have to learn, sooner or later, as a logi pilot.

Oh, and I haven't done the math, but the neut resistance from the cap battery might make a significant difference when it comes to the niarja's and deltoles, but probably not the outini's.  So, this might be a plus, but it still isn't going to be enough to offset the disadvantages.

TLDR: You're not alone in liking the cap stable basi, but I can't endorse it... for now.

At Evesterdam, CCP said that they would be introducing Saviors (implants that reduce logi rep cycles), and rebalancing cap mods so that they have bigger effect sizes, but are subject to stacking penalties.  This means that it may be possible to get basi's cap stable with fewer cap mods in the future. This, in turn, could free up slots for ReSeBo's and Sig Amps.  Of course, all that being said, I think the fleet would probably get more benefit from logi with Savior Implants, than the elimination of the cap chain.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Zane Chakaid
Grammar

[Zane Chakaid 24]

In fact, now that I think about it, I wonder if it would be all that difficult/expensive to get a level 4 basi stable with one incoming cap transfer after the changes to cap mods have been implemented.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Zane Chakaid

[Elathy Maricadie 2]

On 24.4.2019 at 9:07 PM, Zane Chakaid said:

• 7% less repping power
• 32% more expensive than the opti Basi, and 274% more expensive than the minimum fit
• Buffer EHP is lower than the opti and minimum fits by 7.5% and 29.4% respectively. This is combined with diminished repping power for the fleet -which is not inconsequential considering logistics cruisers are already the most frequently lost ships.
• No room for a sig amp (which reducses lock times, significantly decreases the chances of being jammed by Niarja [still quite likely to be jammed by the 3x arnon though], and grants up to 2 extra locks for pre-locking agro magnets and dealing with split agro).
• No room for a ReSeBo, which greatly helps the DDD to kill Niarjas -which, in turn, improves fleet safety.  FC's often fit ReSeBo's, but up to three scripted, faction ReSeBo's will have an effect on lock times.

As you probably didn't read everything, you most likely missed

On 20.4.2019 at 6:16 PM, Elathy Maricadie said:

I just want to also throw this into the context; it's also cap stable with 4x Medium A-Type and 1x T2 Large Shield Transfer; yielding repair capability of 339 Shield HP/s. (stable at 34.5% cap).

 

If you adjust for faction module I didn't use/used in my fit there is very little difference:

EHP: 37.124 (Opti) vs 35.612 (my fit); so only a measly 4% difference.

REP: 340 HP/s (Opti) vs 399 HP/s (my fit); 0.3% difference. 

Est. Price: 643 mil (Opti) vs 728 mil (my fit); Only 12.5% more expensive (difference).

you also mention Signal Amplifier and since it's not part of the official Optimal Basilisk fit your argument for that specific module is just barely valid. Why does it have to be Basilisks that must have a Sensor Booster? could it not just as well be 2 Scimitars that provide the extra Sensor Resolution (2x ReSeBo) for the DDD?, they are providing the bunny with links anyway so that doesn't do any harm and it frees up a lock for the basilisks.

I'm aware that CCP has many plans on changing how Remote Assistance work; Remote Repairs are just the first step on that road.

  

 

 

[Zane Chakaid 24]

I assure you that I fully read posts before I respond to them.

Anyway, a faction LSE will shrink the difference in EHP, but at an additional isk cost.  With that factored in, the price difference between the opti fit is 47% (according to pyfa. Eve appraisal and/or the in-game fitting tool might give more accurate results).  Regardless, it will still be less EHP, less repping power, & no resebo/sig amp for more money.

Also, I'm not sure why we have a discrepancy in repping power, because using Pyfa (up to date) I got 318 cold (your stable fit) versus 340 cold (min & opti fit) -which results in a 6.9% difference.

Scimitars get a hull bonus to remote tracking computers, so it makes more sense to devote their utility mids to them.

Giving ReSeBo's to the DDD helps him to kill Niarjas, which helps to avoid jams, or end them early, for all logi (and the rest of the fleet).

And like I said before, you can't eliminate the cap chain unless you make it mandatory for all basi's to be cap stable.  This will increase the barrier to entry to fly a basi, which can reduce the number of available logi.  And if you don't make the stable basi mandatory, you haven't eliminated the cap chain, you've just exempted yourself from it through making several significant compromises.  Moreover, as I said before, the cap chain isn't difficult to set up or maintain.  Capping around a Jammed basi is easy.  Of course, I have seen newbros fumble with the cap chain, but it usually doesn't take them that long to figure it out and become reliable.  And after about 2,000 incursion sites, I've only seen one instance of a basi pilot struggling with it so much that the FC had him and another pilot drop fleet in order to do additional training.

So sell it to me.  Why is it worth it to compromise tank, repping power, utility, and cost in order to make a basi cap stable on it's own?  What evidence do you have for the cap chain being such a pain point that it should be eliminated?

6 hours ago, Elathy Maricadie said:

you also mention Signal Amplifier and since it's not part of the official Optimal Basilisk fit your argument for that specific module is just barely valid.

Also, by this logic, your argument for a cap stable basi is just barely valid

Regardless, the Sig Amp is not required, but has a lot going for it.  As such, I recommend that those who have spare cap and/or fitting room to swap a low power slot for a sig amp.

1. It reduces the chances of being jammed
2. decreases lock times (I only did a chart for logi, but it can reduce lock times of BS's depending on ship and rig selection)
3. provides up to two extra locks for pre-locking agro magnets, cap thirsty vindi's, and dealing with split agro (extra locks require Advanced Target Management IV and V).
4. It also increases lock range, but this is irrelevant in incursions

In short, it does take good skills to fit, but if you don't need the cap or fitting room, you can get a lot of benefit from a Sig Amp without compromising ship performance in any way.  Moreover, the isk cost of adding one is relatively cheap (the Sentient Sig Amp is only 3 mil, but you might need to spend more on an implant or T2 Ancillary Current router).

 

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Zane Chakaid
Deleted some pictures of fits. Don't know how they ended up in there.

[Zane Chakaid 24]

 

7 hours ago, Elathy Maricadie said:

EHP: 37.124 (Opti) vs 35.612 (my fit); so only a measly 4% difference.

Also, you tried framing the EHP difference as being insignificant by virtue of it being small.  But do bear in mind that even a 4% difference can be critical depending on the situation.  For example, if you already have more than enough tank to safely run sites, then 4% more tank isn't going to matter.  However, if you are at the cusp of safely running sites, then 4% can make a world of difference.  Think of it this way, 98% of a lethal dose of poison is fundamentally different from 102% of a lethal dose of poison.

Anyway, assuming an equal split of basi's and scimi's, the 4% discrepancy in tank will be combined with a 3.3% decrease in fleet repping power.  Which may very well be a significant difference.  After all, logi are already the most frequently lost ships in incursions, and I've certainly seen the shields of many a logi ship vaporize when reps weren't properly staggered on them.  Regardless, this difference in tank and repping power may not break the basi outright, but I wouldn't be surprised if the change resulted in statistically significant increase in logi deaths.

[Elathy Maricadie 2]

12 hours ago, Zane Chakaid said:

Also, I'm not sure why we have a discrepancy in repping power, because using Pyfa (up to date) I got 318 cold (your stable fit) versus 340 cold (min & opti fit) -which results in a 6.9% difference.

One of the last things I wrote in the OP was that It would still be cap stable with 4x A-type Mediums + 1x T2 Large; this setup will give it 399.

 

here is the updated fit

Spoiler

[Basilisk, Basi Cap Stable]
Damage Control II
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Pith X-Type EM Ward Field
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Thukker Large Cap Battery
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
10MN Afterburner II

Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Medium Remote Shield Booster
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

Nanite Repair Paste x1337

 

[Zane Chakaid 24]

Ah, I didn't notice that the orginal fit lacked the T2 Large Shield Repper when I imported it into Pyfa.

With the change, I have 339 HP/s rep, which is basically the same as the standard basi. So that negates one of my complaints.

[Ikazis Muvila 3]

Also, the reason the optimal fit doesn't have a sigamp is because IIRC you do need some implants for it to still be stable.

[Vargon Penken 62]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:32 PM, Ikazis Muvila said:

Also, the reason the optimal fit doesn't have a sigamp is because IIRC you do need some implants for it to still be stable.

Well... Yes and no. It really depends on skills. With all lvl 5 skills this fit works:
 

Spoiler

[Basilisk, *Better Layout 4 Heat]

Damage Control II
Syndicate Signal Amplifier

Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type EM Ward Amplifier
Thukker Large Shield Extender
Gistum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Shadow Serpentis Sensor Booster

Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Remote Shield Booster II
Large Remote Shield Booster II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5

Nanite Repair Paste x300
ECCM Script x1

With that fit you are sitting at -64.1 cap delta. Now if you are lower than level five, the above fit teeters on the edge of cap stability, and requires a lot of weird level five skills (like afterburner 5, and fuel conservation 5). No one trains those lets be real, ok I did... but besides the point.

The reason our optimal does not have a sig amp is the above fit has a very high chance of being unstable to a newbro, who believes they only need logi level five. A versed pilot, knows that they can fly this with a simple cap implant if they lack a few skills. However, that's kind of the problem. Unless the new bro has attended a logi school, read all this stuff on the forums, talked to someone to understand what a negative cap delta is, then there is a high chance flying that they won't be stable. So how we get pilots into a ship like that, is more word of mouth. Because we do want better fit logistics ships, but we don't want pilots who haven't spoken to anyone to assume they can just buy the most expensive ship and fly it optimally. 

-V

Edited July 22, 2019 by Vargon Penken
Corrections to argument.