Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 12, 2019 Hi guys, I want to share my thread on the official forums with you, and hear your thoughts on it. You can answer in this thread if you prefer it. https://forums.eveonline.com/t/incursions-armageddon-navy-issue/139337 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ixex 20 Posted February 15, 2019 Bring it to a fun fleet and post logs of real applied dps. It looks good on paper. The tracking is about half what a vindi is before links and it adds no real fleet utility, but the projection and the damage look solid. With that said, incursions have been running for a very long time, I can't think of a community that encourages them, there's got to be a reason for that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 15, 2019 The Bhaalgorn has 8 effective turrets (after its bonus). The Armageddon navy issue has 8.75, and it can field a full flight of sentry drones. The Bhaalgorn cannot, so with these two things it is quite far behind on DPS. As a webbing ship, the Vindicator is better. (Or the Loki i would say, which i cover in my thread). As for the Vindicator VS the Armageddon, I don't know what you have seen from the Armageddon, but site aggro is an indicator of individual pilot performance there and then, at best. Over time it can tell you a little more, but not everything. An individual Vindicator can always pull aggro from an Armageddon if he tries, but that is not the only factor to consider. I think i have shown in my thread that the overall total fleet numbers are pretty close, lets say around 50/50 to be fair. However, the Vindicator cannot hit sniper targets as the Armageddon can, which is why i think the Armageddon navy issue comes out on top in the end. In the case of fleet utility (i cover this in my thread) The Vindicator in the fleet doctrine today is a ship that mostly works for itself. By that i mean, its webs is something it needs on its own, to be able to hit smaller targets effectively at close range. Same with its tracking. So i would argue that today, it brings no real utility, since everything it does it does for itself. In the doctrine i have suggested, i think the Loki is a better option for webs because it is faster in speed and lock time and has really long range on its webs. That will allow the fleet to start DPS on these quickly, and more effectively from afar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
niki lasvegas 537 Posted February 16, 2019 Alright. Im gonna write down a couple of single facts. To set things straight here The Vindi is a better dps ship than the Navy Geddon for incursion purposes. Close range it does way more dps with better application. And im talking about 25 kms or closer at the very least. The Vindi has utility: the webs which is ridiculously decreasing site times, if used properly. Also the Vindi is more cap stable, which is a funny thing to say, cuz they are cap hungry if properly used. Out of 3 HQ sites there are 2 where you are bashing a 9 million EHP tower. That means you need as much paper deeps as you can get. The Navy Geddon has about as much paper deeps as a Hyperion. So thats not really what we are looking for while we are searching for the ultimate HQ doctrine DPS ship. There is one single site where you actually need a significant amount of snipers. Thats the NRF. But in that site drones are much less important cuz they are spending their times flying around bouncing from target to target a lot. Which means you are mostly only relying on your guns. The Nightmare as a sniper does a better job than the Navy Geddon. More paper gun dps on long range and twice the tracking, which is actually really important for killing Maras, one of the sansha rats that are main snipers targets. You could make an arguement about Navy Geddon having better paper deeps with the huge dronebay than Nightmares, but if you cant actually apply your guns on sniper targets, then i dont think you want to use them instead, lol. Im really sorry, but you just simply cant make a case with Navy Geddon better than Vindi for incursions. Cuz its not true. Just a sidenote: WTM doesnt allow sentry drones in HQs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 16, 2019 I would guess from your conclusive answer that you did not read much of my thread. It is getting quite long by now, and i understand that is is tedious to read it all. I will try to make a short as possible summary of my main points here. What is more or less unavoidable to what i am saying, is the fleet comparison in my thread. Fleet 1: 3 Machariel 2883 turret DPS + 475 Hammerhead II DPS 6 Nightmare 7122 turret DPS + 948 Hammerhead II DPS 22 Vindicator 40,788 turret DPS + 6974 Ogre II DPS = Total 10005 long range DPS = Max DPS: 59,190 (to 14km) Fleet 2: 31 Armageddon navy issue 28427 DPS long range (no drones) 39227 DPS to 60km 50,468 Max DPS (to 35km) As you can see the total max DPS of both fleets is not far away from each other. For the Vindicator fleet, Nearly all of their maximum DPS advantage comes from their medium and heavy drones only. So for NRF, this advantage is non-existant in these terms. For about half of the TPPH it is the same. So this DPS advantage of about 8k the Vindicator fleet has, will only be relevant in TCRC, and half of TPPH. In total: 1.5 / 3 times. Since these medium/heavy drones are only used on the tower. (while sentries with about 60km range can be more effectively used at all times) With this in mind, my doctrine has 1 main ship while the current doctrine has more or less 3, and split DPS/sniper roles. So in reality my doctrine will be able to field a consistent higher amount of Armageddons than the number of Vindicators the other doctrine can. The Armageddon has a less steep curve in terms of individual pilot effectiveness too, than the Vindi. I will argue that particularly new pilots will be more useful in this ship, than in a close range blaster ship. While the Vindicator needs a lot of MWD usage and microing to apply any DPS at all, the Armageddon can apply it instantly from almost anywhere with instant ammo swapping. So paper aside, it gains advantage in total effectiveness which is an invisible factor on a paper comparison. This is something that should not be underestimated. If you think there is merit in this, i hope you will check out my thread in more detail, as i cover all of the points you are mentioning, webs, tracking, range, application, cap and more. All of the ships in question are pretty much covered. If you are looking for the fittings themselves, they are at the end of the thread. There is one shield fit (my ship) and a few armor ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ademiri 27 Posted February 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Cpt Tirel said: I would guess from your conclusive answer that you did not read much of my thread. It is getting quite long by now, and i understand that is is tedious to read it all. I will try to make a short as possible summary of my main points here. Knowing Nikki he read it and came to the same conclusion that I told you in WTM local chat yesterday. The ship doesn't meet the standards of our current approved ships. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 17, 2019 Ademiri, I know very well that it is not an approved ship in particularly DTF and WTM. I would still hope that any doctrine can be open to serious, theoretical discussion. Nikki, you said that the Vindicator has more cap, also more DPS and application below 25km. And that the Nightmare has twice the tracking: In Pyfa, i get these numbers: Armageddon navy issue (Pulse, the ship linked near the end of my official forum thread) - Scorch 3.48 tracking, 917 DPS@ 55+19.5km - Imperial navy multi 4.64 tracking, 1151 DPS @ 19.9+19.5km - Conflagration 3.25 tracking, 1284 DPS @ 19.9+19.9km Nightmare, WTM optimal (2x optimal range script, 1x tracking speed script) - Imperial navy multi 3.23 tracking, 1170 DPS @ 43.6+43.2 - Gleam 4.04 tracking, 1187 DPS @ 21.8+42.2 Vindicator, WTM optimal - Null 6.7 tracking, 1329 DPS @ 12.6+17.5km - Void 6.7 tracking, 1861 DPS @ 6.5+6.25km From this i would say there is no major advantage to neither the beam Nightmare or the Vindicator VS pulse Armageddon when it comes to tracking. At least not something that will allow you to reliably hit a target the Armageddon navy could not hit at their respective optimal ranges. Blasters need more tracking by default because the transversal is much higher at close range. At 20km and beyond, i gather from this that the Armageddon navy beats the Vindicator rather easily considering that the Vindi is nearing twice the range of its optimal with null at that point. The webs are, much like their tracking, something the Vindicator needs for its own DPS at close range. As you said, a large amount of Vindi-webs to hold down the whole spawn can be great and works very well when a bunch of good Vindi pilots manage to pull it off. Of course, this does not always happen. And when it does it is, for the most part, only to the advantage of the Vindis themselves. I will also argue that there is a great variation in the performance of individual Vindi pilots particularly due to the very strict range management required. The performance you get will be much more variable than it would be in a long range ship. It would be very interesting to see some actual data on how much of the site that the average Vindicator is actually spending cycling the guns effectively. I think it is considerably less than the snipers. Especially in TPPH (tower excluded) and at the start and end of NRF. This is something that will drag down its real DPS considerably. In my thread i argue that Lokis are better webbers for a long range fleet, because their webs have a longer range, can be applied faster, and are sufficient for long range damage application. My Armageddon fleet with 50k DPS can kill the 9.000.000 EHP tower in about 180 seconds. The Vindi fleet i have put here with 59k will kill it in about 153. Not much of a difference. I think the huge advantage in ranged DPS will rake in more ISK/hr. That is before considering my point that a fleet with 1 main ship will be able to get much more of that than the fleet looking for 3. Most communities avoid TPPH and NRF in favor of TCRC. I think my doctrine can make those two sites more attractive. For the cap, you say it is more cap unstable than the Vindicator. This is wrong. The Vindicator with the MWD off has a cap of +30.1 and a drain of -34.2. The Armageddon has a cap of +42.3 and -38.3 The NOS wont be able to run constantly, but it is cap stable @45% when it is running. It only needs 1 active hardener, as it has 400 rig calibration as opposed to the Vindicators 350. With that it can fit an extra shield rig so its tank reach 75-70-70-75 with the single B-type and a passive hardener. With the two hardeners running, the passive drain of the Vindicator is twice as high, -8 vs -4. The Armageddon navy also requires less use of the MWD in every site. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ixex 20 Posted February 17, 2019 Cpt Tirel it's obvious you are very passionate about the ANI. It's a good ship, what I would suggest, apply for T or R badge, learn how we run fleets and why the decisions were made the way they were with regards to doctrine THEN try to make improvements with the backing of a full badge with full knowledge of how we structure our fleets. Until then, bring it to the next fun fleet and post the logs from that fleet to prove your point. I'm not even in a position to say for sure this would be a bad idea or a good idea, I'm still learning myself. One thing I do want to point out, tracking of 3 vs a tracking of 6 is a huge difference, and we do have to hit things like Mara's and frigates. I know in my vindi if the FC calls for frigs to die I will shoot them even without links, but in my nightmare I wont even bother unless it's webbed to crap and back. It also shows the full fleet utility of webs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 17, 2019 Hi Ixex, thanks for the suggestion, maybe i will apply for those badges. I agree about the tracking, the ANI here can get 6.19 tracking if using multi and switching scripts so its pretty close to the Vindi at that point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nazeth 1 Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) When i started game many years ago my ally fc (ty Mister Vee or everything :D) learn me, that lasers have the biggest potential in fleet fights. They can instantly switch between short-medium and long range. Their shorted range ammo have medium range and in great numbers they can overwhelm most of the fleets. The most dangerous counter vs them were blaster fleets in <15km. As long as enemies can use Void as long they will be better. You must do everything to run away from Void range. If we can run away from Void range they still can use Null ammo with similar stats to pulse's short range ammo. Let's compare turret dps, because drones are the same: Vindicator with Void - up to 2133 DPS from turrets to 13 km Vindicator with Null - up to 1523 DPS from turrets to 30 km ArmaNI with Conflagration - up to 1513 DPS from turrets to 28 km ArmaNi with Scorch - up to 1080 DPS from turrets to 56 km About Bhaalgorn vs ArmaNI DPS: Bhaal have 4 turrets with DPS like 8 turrets ArmaNI have 7 turrets with capacitor consumption like 3,5 turrets ArmaNI have 25% bonus to rate of fire ArmaNI > Bhaalgorn in DPS ArmaNI have some problems: high cap consumption like most of T1 Amarrs they haven't super webs like Bhaals or Vindis they are slower than Vindis they have only 4 medium slots. Probably armor doctrine should be better what we do with targets above 60 km? On tower bashing its still will be lower DPS Edited February 18, 2019 by Nazeth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maximus Atreide 25 Posted February 18, 2019 @Cpt Tirel So lets do a real world comparison here fit wise. The primary issue with the Geddon Navy is it is a pain to fit, our fits are designed so they are not impossible to fly without perfect skills. So here would be the comparable fits. [Apocalypse Navy Issue, Apocalypse Navy Issue Standard] Damage Control II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Capacitor Power Relay II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Acolyte II x10 Hammerhead II x5 Conflagration L x1 Scorch L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 [Armageddon Navy Issue, Armageddon Navy Issue fit] Damage Control II Co-Processor II Dark Blood Power Diagnostic System Dark Blood Power Diagnostic System Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Ogre II x5 [Bhaalgorn, Bhaalgorn Standard] Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier Stasis Webifier II Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu True Sansha Heavy Energy Nosferatu Large Remote Armor Repairer II Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defense Field Extender I Acolyte II x10 Ogre II x4 Conflagration L x1 Scorch L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 [Paladin, Paladin Minimum] Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Large Shield Extender II Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L Auto Targeting System I Large Remote Armor Repairer II Heavy Energy Nosferatu II Small Tractor Beam I Large Energy Burst Aerator II Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II Acolyte II x5 Light Armor Maintenance Bot I x5 Light Hull Maintenance Bot I x5 Conflagration L x1 Scorch L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 [Nightmare, Nightmare Standard] Damage Control II Capacitor Power Relay II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Acolyte II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Gleam L x1 Imperial Navy Gamma L x1 Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x1 Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L x1 Imperial Navy Xray L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 Optimal Range Script x3 Tracking Speed Script x3 Mobile Depot x1 Small Tractor Beam I x1 Laser Boat Comparison There is a chart showing the comparison's, to get the Geddon Navy anywhere near the cpu/pg usage % of the other ships it requires the coprocessor and the 2 pds. It suffers in range and tracking for a slight increase in DPS over the Apoc Navy for approx the same price. Are there other ways it could be fit with more bling to reduce CPU usage yes, as for PG with PG management, Advanced weapon upgrades and Energy weapon rigging all to 5 which is unrealistic for an entry level fit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ikazis Muvila 3 Posted February 18, 2019 The reason I like the bhaalghorn is, I have dual webs, range bonus to those webs, and my 3 X-type nos ensure that I don't run out of cap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 18, 2019 Nazeth you bring up some good points. I think your FC was very wise. Lasers, particularly pulses, (in this case large pulses) dominate in the ranges between 15-60km, all things considered. It would be quite an imbalanced weapon system if it had less cap drain. When you have a large fleet, some range flexibility without major downsides like massive decrease to tracking or low DPS is just awesome. I have some comments for the negatives you mention: high cap consumption like most of T1 Amarrs - Nothing that cant be managed, it needs less frequent cap transfer from logi than the Vindicator when used and fitted properly. They haven't super webs like Bhaals or Vindis - I think role-ships are better used for webs, like 2-3 Loki. Specialized roles means more focus on the main task. This goes for all ships really. Half the fleet dont need webs, most likely it will be overkill/waste of slots. Or even waste of ships. They are slower than Vindis - Not by a major factor, and speed is less of an issue when you have 60km turret range. They have only 4 medium slots. Probably armor doctrine should be better - It only needs 2 of those for the tank when you have a b-type tank. If it required 3 it would be pretty bad, but that is not the case ^^ What we do with targets above 60 km? - MWD On tower bashing its still will be lower DPS - It could, however the fleet comparison in my thread show that if the fleet has less than half the number of Vindicator than it would have ANI's, the maximum DPS is more or less equal. Considering that my fleet only has 1 main ship and the other has 3, it will be able to get more, how many more? who knows. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 19, 2019 Maximus, thanks for the good data, I would however argue that you are only half right that the ANI has a high level of entry. Its barrier is mostly ISK, not skills. [Armageddon Navy Issue, Shield cheap] Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Capacitor Power Relay II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type EM Ward Amplifier Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L [Empty High slot] Large Energy Collision Accelerator II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Curator II x5 This is what i would consider close to a minimum fit. The ship and everything costs 1.3 bill according to Pyfa. This has 70 CPU and 2.5k powergrid to spare. It has pretty much enough cap to swap out the cap power relay with a power diagnostic if it needs more power. The tank is good like this pretty much forever, so all this needs now is more skills and damage upgrades to be close to perfect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maximus Atreide 25 Posted February 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Cpt Tirel said: Maximus, thanks for the good data, I would however argue that you are only half right that the ANI has a high level of entry. Its barrier is mostly ISK, not skills. [Armageddon Navy Issue, Shield cheap] Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Capacitor Power Relay II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type EM Ward Amplifier Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L [Empty High slot] Large Energy Collision Accelerator II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Curator II x5 This is what i would consider close to a minimum fit. The ship and everything costs 1.3 bill according to Pyfa. This has 70 CPU and 2.5k powergrid to spare. It has pretty much enough cap to swap out the cap power relay with a power diagnostic if it needs more power. The tank is good like this pretty much forever, so all this needs now is more skills and damage upgrades to be close to perfect. Sentry drones are not allowed in WTM, they were banned over a year ago. It was just brought to my attention this wasn't updated in the rules and regulations, it's something I will address tomorrow. For the same price you can fly this [Nightmare, Nightmare Intermediate] Damage Control II Capacitor Power Relay II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Sensor Booster II Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Tachyon Beam Laser II, Gleam L Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Acolyte II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Gleam L x1 Imperial Navy Gamma L x1 Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x1 Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L x1 Imperial Navy Xray L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 ECCM Script x1 Scan Resolution Script x1 Optimal Range Script x3 Tracking Speed Script x3 Mobile Depot x1 Small Tractor Beam I x1 Also the Geddon Navy is like 10k shield EHP less then most other ships. With better range and tracking for a sacrifice of 137 gun dps. Drone DPS is inaccurate anyway since it does not count flight time. The only sniper ship which holds a chance against the Nightmare is the Leshak. As for DPS this Vindi makes that Geddon Navy cry. [Vindicator, Vindicator Standard] Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 500MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier True Sansha Stasis Webifier Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Null L Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Ogre II x5 Null L x1 Void L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 1043 dps so on paper is has 25 less DPS but better application through better range and tracking with 15.1k opti 24.7k falloff with 7.94 tracking and web bonus with potential to do 1460 dps switching to void. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 19, 2019 Nikki already told me that sentry drones are not allowed. I can see why you would not have them. They are not very practical on blaster boats and none of the other main ships can use 5 of them. In this case though i am trying to argue that i don't think blasters are ideal for Incursions. One of my arguments for the Armageddon navy issue is that it can use sentry drones effectively as blap blap assistance in places (NRF, TPPH tower area) where heavy/medium drones are much less effective and mainly advantageous for the tower siege. I guess you could say that the doctrine i am suggesting is mainly a pulse laser doctrine. As i said in my reply to Nazeth, they are just too good in the 15-60km range, and is second only to blasters in total DPS as a turret system. At what point does range give a total versatility advantage over higher maximum paper DPS? I think it is at this point. In this doctrine i am suggesting i think any ship that can use pulse lasers well is acceptable. Though, as someone who has used maxed out variants of pulse NM, pulse Paladin and Pulse ANI in HQ's, i say the pulse ANI has the advantage because of its sentries. Pulses are just so good by default. The bonuses to them that the NM and Paladin has is not enough to put them above the 250+ ranged DPS advantage that sentries give the ANI. This is what i got from my experience of testing all of them. The shield EHP is indeed something to be considered. The resist profiles are solid however. And it wont pop faster than any other 100k EHP ship so i think its not really something that invalidates the ship. The fact that it has 50 more rig calibration frees up a mid slot for the tank too comparing to the optimal fit pirate ships, so i do not think it is at much of a total disadvantage here. I remember in TVP after i had used ANI and sentries to great success for a while, grabbing aggro left and right. I noticed some of the frequent Vindicator pilots started switching to sentry drones too. With mixed results of course. I think this tells a lot about the effectiveness of the ANI. Or maybe they just switched their drones at random, and i am delusional Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nazeth 1 Posted February 19, 2019 11 hours ago, Cpt Tirel said: Lasers, particularly pulses, (in this case large pulses) dominate in the ranges between 15-60km, all things considered. ArmaNI dominate between 30-60km. Blasters are better at 0-15km. Between 15-30km DPS is similar, but blasters have 2x better tracking. Current tactics allow us to kill all DPS targets under 30km with Vindis. If Vindis can kill mnimum 51% DPS targets under 15km and rest DPS targets under 30km, then Vindi/Snipers mix will be better. ArmaNI have advantage over Vindi/Sniper mix , if they can't do that. Still AmraNI should be able to: kill all DPS targets under 30km kill Sniper targets under 60km with maintaining fire during movement Even with that they still can't be better on tower bashing with lack of 10k fleet DPS. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cpt Tirel 0 Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Nazeth said: blasters have 2x better tracking ANI 1x tracking computer, optimal range script. 1x tracking enhancer - Scorch 3.48 tracking, 917 DPS@ 55+19.5km - Imperial navy multi 4.64 tracking, 1151 DPS @ 19.9+19.5km - Conflagration 3.25 tracking, 1284 DPS @ 19.9+19.9km Switching scripts to tracking speed gives this ship a tracking of 6.19 with multi. Vindicator, WTM optimal - Null 6.7 tracking, 1329 DPS @ 12.6+17.5km - Void 6.7 tracking, 1861 DPS @ 6.5+6.25km 6 hours ago, Nazeth said: Even with that they still can't be better on tower bashing with lack of 10k fleet DPS. The advantage on tower bashing comes from heavy and medium drone DPS and gives it a 27 second advantage over the other fleet. To achieve this it is lacking in sniper DPS and will be slowed down by this. You could drop Vindicators and fill in Snipers to try and fix this, but in the end you will end up with less concistency than the ANI fleet which only needs one ship. The Vindicator fleet is dependent on a perfect composition of snipers/dps, to match it. The ANI fleet uses Lokis for webs. Vindicators can be used aswell, but as role ships, not main doctrine. Edited February 19, 2019 by Cpt Tirel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nazeth 1 Posted February 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Cpt Tirel said: Switching scripts to tracking speed gives this ship a tracking of 6.19 with multi. The ANI fleet uses Lokis for webs. Don't forget that Multiifrequency have lower DPS than Conflagration. It will be even bigger difference between them and Void/Null. Extra support ships reduce number of slots for DPS ships. It's another drop of fleet DPS. ArmaNI compared to Bhaalgorn have extra ~200 (12%) Total DPS without medium range webs. Both of them should have 4 Heats Sinks and 2 DDA for extra drone damage. I calculated many alternatives years ago. Until VVV doing his job well, there is nothing what can beat current doctrine The closest alternative to Vindis what i found are other blaster battleships (Hyperion, Dominixes, Megathrons) and Torpedo Rattlesnake. After them are Cruise Rattlesnake, ArmaNI and AC Machariel. Most of pulse laser ships will be worse than Rattlesnake with pilot, who's know how to use switch target missile tactic. Only ArmaNI have potential Total DPS like Cruise Rattlesnake. I used per long time Dual MGC Torpedo Rattle, but in practice: Rage Torpedoes are slow (~2300 m/s). VVV can't do positioning mistakes to use them vs NPCs. They are usable mostly on Tower Bashing (2182 Total DPS) Caldari Navy Torpedoes are better vs NPCs than Rage on close range (1979 Total DPS), but they are expensive and still slow (~2700 m/s). Javelins are main ammo vs NPCs (1730 DPS and ~4100 m/s). Gecko and "Augmented" Ogres even with 2 DNC need time to reach targets. When Gecko is nice to kill NPCs, then "Augmented" Ogres are better on tower bashing and close range NPC waves. HHHs are lazy b**** Per 50% of time drones do nothing Better is to control them manually. Because VVVs make many mistakes and i can't use Rage or CN Torpedoes so often, then Cruise Rattlesnake is better option with 1887 Total DPS. Fury Cruise Missiles are better to kill NPCs than Javelin Torpedoes and allow me to kill even sniper targets. I don't waste time to switch missile's type, because i have only one type of ammo in cargo. Extra OTCs increase drone tracking speed. Still it's ~500 Total DPS less than Void Vindi, but it is similar to Null Vindi like ArmaNI. Compare to ArmaNI: Rattle haven't instant DPS source above 7km (target is hit instantly by missiles, if range to him is lower than missile Maximum Velocity) better drones missiles can miss killed target and dealt 0 damage need minimum 10 sec to reload magazines one type of ammo (even for lasers switch ammo is lost of minimum 2 sec - game mechanic) can reach targets with max Total DPS to 85km, when ArmaNI only to 18 km missiles have less problems with hit fast and small/medium enemies well played haven't capacitor problems the best survivability extra shield resistances allow him to make cheaper fits with similar Total DPS All DPS are without turret overheating. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zack pilot 29 Posted February 20, 2019 @Cpt Tirel why are you so obsessive over this? I ran the graphs yesterday on your geddon. The tracking is so bad, you would only be effective at shooting capital sized ships. Load multi freq and your dps drops to near starter BS numbers. If you are going to compare the nightmare, compare it with pulse lasers. It’s not comparable my friend. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nazeth 1 Posted February 21, 2019 For me Pulse and Tachyon Nightmare have bigger potential. I will show you difference between pulses and beams.Tachyons + 2x Optimal scripts and 1x Tracking script: Gleam - 12,8+42,2 range | 4,28 tracking speed| 1211 Turret DPS IN Multifrequency - 43,6+42,2 range | 3,42 tracking speed | 1193 Turret DPS IN Gamma - 54,5+42,2 range | 3,42 tracking | 1094 Turret DPS IN Xray - 65,4+42,2 range | 3,42 tracking | 994 Turret DPS IN Ultraviolet - 76,3+42,2 range | 3,42 tracking | 895 Turret DPS Mega Pulses + 3x Optimal scripts: Conflagration - 22,7+24,9 range | 4,3 tracking speed| 1409 Turret DPS IN Multifrequency - 22,7+24,9 range | 6,15 tracking speed| 1263 Turret DPS IN Gamma - 28,4+24,9 range | 6,15 tracking speed| 1158 Turret DPS IN Xray - 34,1+24,9 range | 6,15 tracking speed| 1052 Turret DPS Scorch - 63,6+24,9 range | 4,61 tracking speed| 1007 Turret DPS I compared them in Pyfa vs typical Incursion Sansha BS, CR and FF: Pulses have advantage under 33 km with Conflagration. Above 33 km Tachyons have better Turret DPS vs Towers, battleships and all webbed targets. Against non-webbed cruisers and frigates Scorch have advantage between 38-65 km. As you see. Even Pulses have some weakness above effective range of Conflagration ammo against Beams. Then i added the best possible Armageddon Navy Issue fit to Graph: Turret DPS is similar or even worse vs battleships and webbed targets. ArmaNI doing 40% lower Turret DPS against non-webbed cruisers and frigates. Drone DPS is 80% bigger but still it's extra ~150-200 DPS in slow moving and inaccurate drones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nazeth 1 Posted February 21, 2019 WTF! Why i cant edit my posts after 1 min? It's annoyed! Turret DPS is similar or even worse vs battleships and webbed targets. Sry. It's always worse Turret DPS than Nightmare! Summary: The only one practical advantage of ArmaNI against Nightmare is bigger Total DPS on tower bashing by ~90 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nazeth 1 Posted February 21, 2019 And here you have Graphs 0-40 km of any Pirate battleships with High DPS Ammo and the best drones. Vindicator is with Void and Null. I skipped Leshak, because i can't show you his real DPS on graph. His practical DPS vs NPCs should be worse than Bhaalgorn line as the worst Battleship.vs Ideal Target: vs Sansha Battleship vs Sansha Cruiser As you see Neutron Blaster Cannon Vindicator dominate under 20 km. After him up to 40 km are 800mm Repeating Cannon Machariel, Mega Pulse Nightmare and Cruise Rattlesnake. Against webbed targets graphs look similar. As you see Vindicator pilots should use Void ammo only against targets to 10 km. Above that range Null will be much better Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nazeth 1 Posted February 21, 2019 Edit mistake. On the end of each spoiler is continuation! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maximus Atreide 25 Posted February 21, 2019 30 minutes ago, Nazeth said: Edit mistake. On the end of each spoiler is continuation! I think your rattle dps is wrong, looks like it's including drone dps. Also missile damage has the variable of missing the target if it dies while in flight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
