Cpt Tirel

The secret, hidden, superior Incursion ship! :D

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5 minutes ago, Maximus Atreide said:

I think your rattle dps is wrong, looks like it's including drone dps.

Also missile damage has the variable of missing the target if it dies while in flight.

"And here you have Graphs 0-40 km of any Pirate battleships with High DPS Ammo and the best drones."

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EDITED POST!

And here you have Graphs 0-40 km of any Pirate battleships with High DPS Ammo and the best drones. Vindicator is with Void and Null. I skipped Leshak, because i can't show you his real DPS on graph. His practical DPS vs NPCs should be worse than Bhaalgorn line as the worst Battleship.

vs Ideal Target:

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vs Sansha Battleship

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vs Sansha Cruiser

DJ3F9T8.png&key=c3114ca2b570cec135dca844

 

 

As you see Neutron Blaster Cannon Vindicator dominate under 20 km. After him up to 40 km are 800mm Repeating Cannon Machariel, Mega Pulse Nightmare and Cruise Rattlesnake.
Against webbed targets graphs look similar.
 

By graphs Vindicator pilots should use Void ammo only against targets to 10 km. Above that range Null will be much better :D 

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2 minutes ago, Maximus Atreide said:

Max skills, faction weapons upgrades and it possibly looks like with implants? I would assume RF-906 to match RL-1006 and their respective 10th slot or cm-606 or td-606.

All fits have added the best possible implants for HQ incursions.

Edited by Nazeth

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Just now, Maximus Atreide said:

so 6% rof or 7% rof for turrets? being that the 7% costs like 4b right now.

I chooses the best, so 7%. That graphs showing the best possible fits as we can make with T2, Faction  and Deadspace modules.

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  1. Vindicator is King under 20km
  2. Nightmare and Machariel looks better above 20km. Still they haven't webs to increase DPS under 20km to dethrone Vindicator.
  3. Rattlesnake looks very universal, but his DPS sources aren't instantly. His real damage dealt going down with increasing distance to the target.
  4. Bhaalgorn looks bad.
  5. Barghest is a shit :D
Edited by Nazeth

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14 hours ago, Nazeth said:
  1. Vindicator is King under 20km
  2. Nightmare and Machariel looks better above 20km. Still they haven't webs to increase DPS under 20km to dethrone Vindicator.
  3. Rattlesnake looks very universal, but his DPS sources aren't instantly. His real damage dealt going down with increasing distance to the target.
  4. Bhaalgorn looks bad.
  5. Barghest is a shit :D

Are your calculations on the missile boats also factoring in all implants not just damage.

6 slot - cm606 td606 (6% damage)

7 slot - mp706(Missile velocity - reaches target faster)

8 slot - gp806(i think it decreases explosion radius it says decreases sig factor)

9 slot - tn906(i think it increases explosion velocity it says decreases target velocity)

10 slot - rl1006(rof)

 

As slots 8/9 help with application to smaller ships. Bargs can be very effective if piloted properly, though the only insane barg pilot i knew was @Tyr Saurus.

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21 minutes ago, Maximus Atreide said:

Are your calculations on the missile boats also factoring in all implants not just damage.

6 slot - cm606 td606 (6% damage)

7 slot - mp706(Missile velocity - reaches target faster)

8 slot - gp806(i think it decreases explosion radius it says decreases sig factor)

9 slot - tn906(i think it increases explosion velocity it says decreases target velocity)

10 slot - rl1006(rof)

 

As slots 8/9 help with application to smaller ships. Bargs can be very effective if piloted properly, though the only insane barg pilot i knew was @Tyr Saurus.

  • TD-606
  • MP-706
  • GP-806
  • TN-906 on Barghest and D5-10T on Rattlesnake
  • RL-1006

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I used on Barghest 2x Missile Range Scripts, because i have experience in blob fights and in making fits for corporations/alliances. People during monotony fights going to be lazy. If they can use 2x Range scripts and hit target to 40km or change ammo and scripts every 10 sec to adapt, then they choose that first option. Instead of Rage they can use Javelins, who are more accurate. Problem with Javelins is too low DPS to use them in fight on Barghest. Better DPS and much bigger range + missile velocity have Fury Cruise missiles. Fits must be as simple to use as possible as you want to use them if fleet. Because Rage Torpedoes have disadvantage vs unwebbed targets, Javelins haven't nice DPS, Fury cruise missiles haven't DPS too, so the Barghest looks very bad as DPS. With Cruise Missiles it can be average Sniper with 22-27km/s Fury Cruise Missiles and 1300 DPS.

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OOF this thread is funny. Personally I would say screw this and run a officer fitted blaster rokh.

 

CANT STOP THE ROKH!

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3 hours ago, CarrierKing said:

OOF this thread is funny. Personally I would say screw this and run a officer fitted blaster rokh.

 

CANT STOP THE ROKH!

You haven't lived in a rokh until you try the 350mm rail variant. Top tier, hits hard as a Rokh

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1 hour ago, Izumi Uchiya said:

You haven't lived in a rokh until you try the 350mm rail variant. Top tier, hits hard as a Rokh

250mm Close range spammer is the best :D

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Nazeth, earlier you said that your old FC told you that lasers have the biggest potential in fleet fights. You seemed to agree with that. Since you bring up PVP i will mention that Hellcats (Abaddon doctrine) are one of the most flexible BS PVP doctrines in which doctrines it can counter and fight around its own weight class. They have been used effectively against Drakes, Ferox, Megathrons, Maelstroms and more. Such doctrines are more or less one-trick-ponies compared to Hellcats. Much of it its success is thanks to the superior Abaddon tank of course, but no less due to large pulse turrets which makes it formidable at range and in close quarters.


For the Rattlesnake, it is not viable at all in incursions. Here are two of its main issues:
- It can only be used for shield incursion fleets. I think it is important for the communities that players can move between them as they wish, without having to change ships and skillsets entirely.
- If you want high DPS, you need torpedoes, if you want range you need cruise missiles. So you have the same issue as today, you need to split your fleet into DPS and sniper categories and have people train two weapon types and fit their ships accordingly. This is one of my main points for the pulse ANI over the current doctrine.


For the missiles themselves i hope we can agree that they are less than optimal for Incursions than turrets. Personally i used a maxed out Raven Navy issue (which has better missile application than the Rattlesnake) with Torps a few years ago, to test it. While it had nice close range DPS on battleships and the tower, it was not very effective in total. Lets say that a turret fleet can expect to have about 75% of its total DPS potential applied on average, due to pilot error, etc. (excluding the tower.) A missile fleet will have less. 50% maybe since each ship have to time volleys to not waste DPS, and hit (or not hit) webbed and painted targets. It is just not realistic to expect 20+ pilots to all do this perfectly. Even if they could, i would not expect missiles to have an advantage over turrets.


When it comes to the Nightmare i think you are too focused on paper stats rather than its actual use on grid vs the ANI. Particularly in the case of drones. As i have said, the advantage of the sentries for the ANI is that it can use them perfectly along with their turrets at range. Curator II's shoot fine to 57km, and so does Scorch. You are right that the DPS advantage of the ANI is only about 90 on the tower over the NM, but in most of NRF and the final TPPH room it will be about 240 on maxed out ships due to the sentries. As for the tracking advantage of the NM, it is not something that i found to be superior compared to the DPS advantage of the ANI when i tested both ships. I would also point out that i did not say the NM should not be used, only that the main ship should be ANI in this doctrine. The NM can fill the same flexible range DPS role as the ANI, so you dont get the split fleet problem. I would say a few frigate-blapping Nightmares would probably work great alongside the ANI's. However, you don't want your whole fleet focused on tracking small targets unless there is no downsides at all. And there is.

 

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7 hours ago, Cpt Tirel said:

For the Rattlesnake, it is not viable at all in incursions. Here are two of its main issues:
- It can only be used for shield incursion fleets. I think it is important for the communities that players can move between them as they wish, without having to change ships and skillsets entirely.
- If you want high DPS, you need torpedoes, if you want range you need cruise missiles. So you have the same issue as today, you need to split your fleet into DPS and sniper categories and have people train two weapon types and fit their ships accordingly. This is one of my main points for the pulse ANI over the current doctrine.


For the missiles themselves i hope we can agree that they are less than optimal for Incursions than turrets. Personally i used a maxed out Raven Navy issue (which has better missile application than the Rattlesnake) with Torps a few years ago, to test it. While it had nice close range DPS on battleships and the tower, it was not very effective in total. Lets say that a turret fleet can expect to have about 75% of its total DPS potential applied on average, due to pilot error, etc. (excluding the tower.) A missile fleet will have less. 50% maybe since each ship have to time volleys to not waste DPS, and hit (or not hit) webbed and painted targets. It is just not realistic to expect 20+ pilots to all do this perfectly. Even if they could, i would not expect missiles to have an advantage over turrets.

For me Torpedo RNI is useless like Torpedo Rattlesnake. Torpedo velocity is too low on them even with great application to do serious DPS

7 hours ago, Cpt Tirel said:

When it comes to the Nightmare i think you are too focused on paper stats rather than its actual use on grid vs the ANI. Particularly in the case of drones. As i have said, the advantage of the sentries for the ANI is that it can use them perfectly along with their turrets at range. Curator II's shoot fine to 57km, and so does Scorch. You are right that the DPS advantage of the ANI is only about 90 on the tower over the NM, but in most of NRF and the final TPPH room it will be about 240 on maxed out ships due to the sentries. As for the tracking advantage of the NM, it is not something that i found to be superior compared to the DPS advantage of the ANI when i tested both ships. I would also point out that i did not say the NM should not be used, only that the main ship should be ANI in this doctrine. The NM can fill the same flexible range DPS role as the ANI, so you dont get the split fleet problem. I would say a few frigate-blapping Nightmares would probably work great alongside the ANI's. However, you don't want your whole fleet focused on tracking small targets unless there is no downsides at all. And there is.

I'm never focusing on paper stats, but they are good to show others basic difference between ships (People don't trust other people on the word or experience. They want that on paper!)

I chooses Nightmare, because ArmaNI like Abaddon have poor turret tracking. It's so bad, that they have troubles with hit cruisers even, if they are webbed and painted. For that reason Abaddons were replaced by Apocalypses and Megathrons. I flied last time in Bhaalgorn who have similar problems. I heard that GSF planned to use Blaster Megathrons/Vindicators against capitals but Railguns were more flexible. Early prototypes of Bhaalgorns were anti BC,BS, Capitals with Pulse Lasers and webs, but we had problems with tracking against BC and CR. Testers changed webs one by one to tracking computers and added WebLokis for better effect. Against BC were "fine", but still we had problems with cruisers. First official doctrine test was a disaster xD. We lost so much Pulse Bhaalgorns to AC Machariels and 'Eagles (no one Eagle died against 400 Pulse Bhaalgorns), who were better in practice. After that battles we changed focus from Anti-subcapital to anti capital/structure with Tachyons. Vindicators should be better with Railguns, but Goons want to melt Bhaalgorns for economy and there is not enough Vindicators to resupply fleets :D Bhaalgorns ended as meatshield and structure bashers.

 

For me Pulse/Tachyon Nightmare is better option with high base tracking like Autocannons or with TCs even better than Blasters. With that and pulse range medium and large ship's fleets aren't problem for them. Their Hammerheads should do similar job to long range sentries.

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