Dindil

@Brododian not sure of the exact amount of time saved, but it would be the equivalent of having 2 vindicators when doing tower bashes. Great for TCRCs. To everyone, I am thrilled about the discussion that this has sparked. If it ends up not being viable then that's fine, I was hoping to provide maybe a long term goal for some WTM pilots who have experience running incursions. I know this ship or fit doesn't really align with WTM's goal of being a new bro friendly ship, but this community is a lot of fun and maybe a carrot on a stick might help some more experienced players stick around to have fun and help out the newbros

Ah, makes sense, my only counterpoint, and a potentially shaky one at that, would be it already would have a cap chain going with other snipers which would allow it to maintain the invuln fields, even with outuni neuts since they have relatively long neuting cycles at 24 seconds per cycle. The remote cap transfer units cycle every 5 seconds so assuming bad cycle times on the cap transfer, and the leshak was totally capped out with both invuln fields cycling down at the same time (absolute worst case scenario) there would be a total of 6 seconds where the invuln fields would be offline (the extra one second accounts for the server tick). I am not sure if this would be within acceptable tolerances and it could be spooky, hence why tests need to be done with it. But yes this is a weakness on this ship. Thank you for bringing this up!

I missed that, thank you. That could pose a problem but the main purpose of that requirement is to ensure that all resists reach 70%. So ultimately something that leadership should take into consideration when looking at this fit.

Not quite, all battleships are required to have all resists at 70% minimum which is usually done by fitting an EM module. This fit meets that requirement with the deadspace adaptive invulnerability fields. The fitting requirements are listed here https://wl.warptome.net/fits/

@niki lasvegas is correct that the base shield of the Leshak is 3500 raw HP, however this fit has a base shield of 13,500 raw shield HP with the LSE and rigs, check my first post for the full fit, you can simulate it yourself or throw it into pyfa to see

Thats why I think it would be up to the FC to limit the total number of Leshaks in any one fleet to at most 3 or 4, there definitely should not be a lot of leshaks in the fleet because of spoolup. Similar to how they balance the amount of logi/snipers/dps or allowing too many marauders in at the same time. While yes it would be more expensive, its not as bad as it seems. In Jita, Large Occult is 9,899 ISK per unit as of the time of this post, and Large Mystic is 10,990ISK. The disintegrator on the Leshak fires once every 3.5 seconds with precursor battleship V, meaning it chews through ammo at a rate of 17.1 per minute or 170,000 ISK per minute. Caldari navy antimatter large is currently 1140 ISK in Jita, on a vindicator it would be firing 8 per cycle at a rate of 1 volley every 3.95 seconds, it will go through ammo at a rate of 15.1 cycles per minute or 140,000 ISK per minute which is similar. However like you said it is much more expensive than T2 ammo, Void L and Null L being 200ISK per unit which totals 24,000 ISK per minute which is far more cost effective. So I do agree with you it is more expensive to operate, it is not prohibitively so.

That makes sense to me, I just hope that this ship and fit will be given a thorough look at then and be allowed on fleets in the near future.

@Maximus Atreide So those concerns are mostly what I am going after. What specifically is causing the Leshak to not be allowed on fleet if on paper it looks fine. All I've heard so far is "you're not allowed to fly it cause leadership says so" and that's not a convincing argument to me. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I am just genuinely curious as to why this is not allowed to fly.

@NilesGrey Thanks for the reply, sure this fit is not for new players, and I dont expect it to become a main WTM doctrine ship. If it simply comes down to supplying WTM leadership with skills and implants that would be used with the fit to be put on a "greenlist" of sorts that would be fine by me too. This is just the case I have presented for having it allowed in small numbers, possibly by pilots that would need to get permission first as opposed to outright not allowed on fleets as it is now. I hope leadership sees this and gets back to me, and I would love to discuss it with them as well.

So sure it would be allowed on fun fleets what about normal fleets? The stats show it can keep up with the rest of the fleet in terms of tank, speed, dps, and tracking, for range it would simply switch between dps and sniper targets depending on range.

Sure thing, here are the comparisons with Imp Navy Multifreq, and Imp Navy Gamma. I picked those crystals as they were what was on the fit and I assumed they were used frequently, I have not flown a Nightmare before in an incursion fleet. Again assuming 2 optimal and 1 tracking script Nightmare Imp Navy Gamma turret DPS: 733 53km - 94km, tracking score 2.94 Nightmare Imp Navy Multifrequency turret DPS: 800 42km - 83km, tracking score 2.94 And for direct comparison Leshak Mystic turret DPS: starts at 680, ramps to 1700, 66km, tracking score 6.39 Leshak Occult turrent DPS: starts at 944, ramps to 2360, 26km, tracking score 6.39 The Leshak still has better tracking at similar ranges, and with ramping dps, will catch up to Nightmare gamma DPS in 2 cycles, (7.3 seconds) and will catch up to Multifrequency DPS in 4 cycles (14.6 seconds).

So given these stats would this fit be allowed to fly in WTM fleets similarly to how marauders are allowed?

So going along with the sniper thing, I will now compare the Leshak to the WTM Intermediate Nightmare Nightmare tank: 100,052 EHP, 15,165 raw shield hp, resists: 73%EM, 73% Thermal, 71% Kinetic, 76% Explosive Leshak tank: 108,795 EHP, 13,500 raw shield hp, resists: 70% EM, 76% Thermal, 82% Kinetic, and 85% Explosive Leshak has lower raw hp, but higher EHP and better resists which make incoming logi reps more effective. Nightmare speed: 1058.8 m/s Leshak speed: 1336.6 m/s The leshak would have no problems keeping up with the fleet. Now for dps I will compare the two assuming the nightmare has 2 optimal range scripts and 1 tracking speed script Nightmare Gleam turret DPS (highest damaging ammo): 812, 21km - 62km, tracking score 3.68 Nightmare XRay turret DPS: 667 64km - 105km, tracking score 2.94 Nightmare Ultraviolat turret DPS: 600 75km - 116km, tracking score 2.94 (Assuming Precursor Battleship V and weapon spec III, in my OP I assumed Precursor battleship III hence the difference in dps here) Leshak Mystic turret DPS: starts at 680, ramps to 1700, 66km, tracking score 6.39 Leshak Occult turrent DPS: starts at 944, ramps to 2360, 26km, tracking score 6.39 So while the Leshak would not have the total range of a nightmare, it will do more dps than a Nightmare loaded with X-Ray when firing on targets at a similar range, especially considering said spoolup. If all sniper targets are over 66km away, the Leshak would simply switch to in range dps targets until sniper targets are within said 66km. So comparing a Leshak to a sniping platform, it seems like it would do well if not better, especially taking into consideration the lack of webs as stated by @Miranda Barstow that would push it more into a sniping role. However it is not without fleet support as it has the cap transfer units which would synergize perfectly with the nightmares it would most likely be flying with. *edit added in the WTM Nightmare incursion fit [Nightmare, Nightmare Intermediate] Tachyon Beam Laser II Tachyon Beam Laser II Tachyon Beam Laser II Tachyon Beam Laser II Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier Capacitor Power Relay II Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Hammerhead II x5 Acolyte II x5 Gleam L x1 Imperial Navy Multifrequency L x1 Imperial Navy Gamma L x1 Imperial Navy Xray L x1 Imperial Navy Ultraviolet L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 Optimal Range Script x3 Tracking Speed Script x3 Scan Resolution Script x1 ECCM Script x1

@Charlemagne IIIThis fit absolutely would not be friendly for newer players and I am not saying it should be a standard WTM fit. I am simply asking if this would be allowed at all since the numbers show it can perform equally to a vindicator in terms of tank, its faster in terms of speed (thanks for getting those numbers @Maximus Atreide), and can hit to much farther ranges. I like the idea that it should be a sniper platform with mystic for the main sites that switches to occult for the tower bashes. I talked with scruffy who is allowed to bring leshaks on fleets and he was telling me about 30k damage ticks on towers which seems incredibly useful for TCRCs. Because of the numerous utility highslots it could also fit a tractor for MTAC runs if no machariels or marauders are in a particular fleet. If not running MTAC then it should stay with the snipers for capchaining, again making use of its numerous utility highslots.

So I asked today in a fleet if a Leshak would work for incursions and I was immediately told don't talk about it here post on the forums so that's what I'm doing now. I designed a fit using the warptome battleship fleet guide and found it has a comparable tank to the Vindicator Standard fit. The Vindicator Standard fit gets 108,157ehp with shield resists being 73% EM, 73% thermal, 73% kinetic, and 78% explosive and 14,464 raw shield hitpoints. This Leshak gets 108,795 total ehp with shield resists being 70% EM, 76% thermal, 82% kinetic, and 85% explosive and 13,500 raw shield hitpoints. My question is whether I would be allowed to bring this fit on a fleet. The dps ramp up to roughly 3000dps (I have heard that similar fits can get upwards of 9000dps when fully spooled up) would make it incredibly useful during tower bashes, and with a base dps of 737 (with precursor battleship at level 3) it still can compete with other dps platforms even with rapid target switching. I estimated on average primaried battleship rats will survive about 10-15 seconds which means the turret dps will ramp up to about 900. This is comparable to vindicator dps with null which sits at 980. If however the Leshak focused on dps target 2 or 3, its dps would ramp up much higher (I do not have hard numbers on this I would have to test it). Now a problem that was presented to me was "what if you had 10 people in these" and yes that would be an issue as having that many ships with spooling dps would hinder the fleet, and at that point it would be up to FC discretion to limit the total number of leshaks in the fleet to no more than 3 or 4. In short my main question is would this be allowed on fleets in small numbers given its stats are comparable to other dps platforms. Here is the Leshak fit [Leshak, *Incursion Leshak] Damage Control II Entropic Radiation Sink II Entropic Radiation Sink II Entropic Radiation Sink II Entropic Radiation Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Pithum B-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender 500MN Microwarpdrive II Supratidal Entropic Disintegrator II Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Large Core Defense Field Extender II Hammerhead II x5 Occult L x1000 For reference here is the Vindicator Standard fit I pulled from https://wl.warptome.net/fits/ [Vindicator, Vindicator Standard] Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Neutron Blaster Cannon II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Domination 500MN Microwarpdrive True Sansha Stasis Webifier Pithum C-Type EM Ward Amplifier Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II Ogre II x5 Null L x1 Void L x1 Nanite Repair Paste x50 *edited Leshak dps to turret dps from total dps